Masdevallia culture, cool growers outdoor culture and Kool logs
 

So Paphy, Wintergirl and i were discussing on another thread I posted on masdevallia erinacea kool logs then morphed into masdie culture outdoors... not sure where to put this but for maximum involvement (I hope) I'm placing it here...

We left off at a point where I mentioned you should see how SBOE and Andy's grow things outdoors...

And wintergirl was talking to us about kool logs, while paphy was wondering how it works, what it's made of, etc.

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...tml#post793950

Also RandomGemini's thread on her masd. maui lollipop also was a discussion on masdie growing

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...tml#post793780
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So to answer estacion seca's inquiry... Andy's and SBOE basically just grow many of their cool growers in open frame structures and not much else, well both areas are crammed with plants and there is shade cloth or overhanging trees and that's about it. They don't water more than what you'd suppose they do, average 3x a week. Andy uses R/O, but dont think SBOE does anything with there water... in fact I recall Paul saying they use well water?

Andy has discussed a lot to me (albeit mostly by email) that many of the plants are subjected to higher or lower temps that they're suppose to handle in wild and do fine. When I was there last summer it was 80-90 and still felt that way in cool grower area and cool gh (Dracs are in a very shady GH. Don't recall humidifiers or swamp coolers or anything...

I'm in santa barbara a few times a year and even there temps and humidity is up and down despite how coastal it is.
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to jump around, and discuss something from random gemini's post...

I've grown a fair amount of masdies in the day, mostly in growing cases, but attempted some in a double potted method I learned once upon a time- the potted plant in sphag set in a larger pot. The sphag holds moisture around the pot without the roots sitting in water, and the sphag adds humidity around plant... well, didn't work for me and i think it's because the roots really were too wet.

probably as is the case of SBOE and Andy's is that outside the breezes make the difference during the heat, how they keep them more moist I'm not sure but I suppose it's worth asking when I'm there next.

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Lastly for this long post, if anyone wants to talk about kool logs to add what wintergirl discusses feel free too... I'm curious about them as Paphy is... definitely may be a solution to growing masdie's in warmer temps...

I don't have much experience with Masdies, but I do believe that air circulation is very helpful during warm - hot temps.

My Masdevallia saw temps in the upper 90s a couple times outdoors last summer and never blinked. In fact they thrived. They were all hybrids or intermediate growers. I have them in leca which no doubt provided evaporative cooling, and they saw the natural night time temp drop.

Subrosa, how many days duration at those plus 90's temps last summer? Did you use humidifier trays underneath the pots as well, or just leca in a pot with the plant only? Did you maintain the same light strength or did you modify with more shade? Thnx.



---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

wintergirl, I don't know if you made it over to this thread move or not but do you have any pics of your k-log and live moss tray setup? Are you growing indoors, outdoors, both?

---------- Post added 03-03-2016 at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was 03-02-2016 at 11:45 PM ----------

Makes sense that SBOE is fine with the well water there. Ph is more neutral, less sodium. Actually really good water they have in that area. You start getting south toward LA and beyond and monitoring phosphorus levels, (adjusting fert combo, etc) is more crucial because the Water District treats so heavily.

During phone call with Andy we discussed imperative to have gradual transition to the more extreme conditions, that the plants to have ability, by and large, to adapt. We didn't get specie specific but I'm guessing some have that ability moreso than others. Just guessing though.

u bada are you saying you take a sphag potted plant and then put it into another sphag potted larger pot? so that there is a sphag 'barrier' between the two pots?

oh I'm beginning to think breeze is very much a big factor in outdoor success with the masdies. There's a grower here in Huntington Beach that keeps vietchiana's and they grow very fine but are reluctant to bloom. Just before the appropriate seasonal time he moves them to a friend's place in San Clemente who's spot is a natural constant cooler breeze corridor and, voila! they start blooming whereupon he then moves them back to his place in HB to enjoy!

I think the whole thing is very interesting because my one masdie (so far, have more on the way), an amabilis is blooming very nicely right now and all the culture sheets describe it as needing almost exact conditions as vietchiana. Grows in same indigenous Peru locale, etc.

My thought is, because I purchased it from Andy, who's conditions, 100 miles south, are pretty much similar to Huntington Beach, my plant didn't skip a beat. So far anyway..

I am finding that my masdies that I am growing in net pots with hydroton in the bottom of the pot for weight, are growing the most vigorously. My Maui Lollipop has about a million roots and grows new leaves all the time. The veitchiana is growing much more slowly. They receive the same water and the same light, but the veitchiana is potted in a clay pot. That's the only difference in their culture. They receive the same water, fertilizer and light. They're growing in the same windowsill.

I really think the big difference is hybrids are less fussy and species need what they need.

I didn't use a humidity tray, and I put the plants where they receive no direct sun. One thing to consider in regards to the alleged tolerance of hybrids to warmer temps. If you cross two cool growing Masdevallia the odds are high that each resulting clone will be a cool growing hybrid. There will naturally be a variance in all traits including this one. Another thing is that not all Masdevallia species are cool growers. I've acquired two warm growing species, M. herradurae and M. tonduzii that I'm growing alongside the hybrids. I plan on adding M. glandulosa in the near future, another warm grower.

They say it's "intermediate" but I found when I was growing them last summer they were doing great until we had a couple of hot days. They were grown inside but the room did get warmer for a few days, but no other plant was bothered and I am in Northern Indiana so it wasn't even that hot really. It almost killed the plant. I quickly bought a Kool-log and since then it stopped declining and is making a slow recovery.

In some cases plants which require cool temps actually require a sufficient temperature drop at night. Constant moderate warmth can be worse than spiking higher during the day and cooling off at night.

Hi RG - When you say 'net pots' are you referring to the plastic pots that are like a cage, you know with square cutouts all around? and, I'm assuming for you're using sphag that goes over the leca, correct?

I hear veitchiana is a notorious slower grower within Masdie genus. As has been brought up, they (as well as many others) tend to require 15-20 degree difference in day/night temp to stimulate blooming. In my readings I see veitch's like a brighter light as well, not so much higher temp, just brighter.

Oh I have that drop at night in my growing space. Edited to say my M. uniflora was the masdie that hated the heat, not the M. glandulosa. My bad I mixed the 2 up, sorry :(

I have tonduzii and it did well through close to 90's last year... really beautiful one. it had 4-5 flowers but I missed them by the time I got to photographing them.

This is beautiful hybrid from my old collection which was a NOid but eventually was identified as Masd. Whiskers which is between veitch x glandulosa... it handled upper 80's i believe, but sorta sulked higher than that. never had a lot of leaves... grew at bottom of a large growing case I had before. And I did have it in a pot with bark/perlite/rock sunk in a larger clay pot with sphag...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bada_b.../album-171935/

You can see the glandulosa close up:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bada_b.../album-171935/

the other masdevallias i grew that did better were in an more open mix and some were mounted... but in a growing case... this by far of the coolest and cooler growing that adapted, M. patula:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bada_b.../album-171935/

They appeared to like higher light than less, but i guess I have to grow more masdies myself now to say more...

When I get kool logs I'll probably try mounting masdies and other pleuros on them and see how they do outside in some sort of enclosure. I'll try to order soon before it gets too hot already here...

Thanks Paphy on all you said re SBOE water, Andy's (didn't think they are 100 miles away, seems SD is a hop skip away from OC, but...)

tonduzii is lovely, has subtle allure. nice to know it can handle a bit of heat. but WOW! vietch x gladulosa! omg the lilac frosting is like candy! great shot! they really named it 'whiskers'? really?? lol, too beautiful for that. i want one.:D especially cuz not only beautiful but also a fair heat trooper. thnx for that info.

andy's.. yeah, a bit far but FYI, next wknd is big international show in san diego and andy's has his annual open house to coincide with it. i prob gonna go down with a friend. not sure which day, like to on Sat. but might end up Sunday. this wknd (right now!) is basic same show in santa barbara..

u have some very nice orchids u bada! i'm intrigued with the miniatures via your inspiring shots. :biggrin: maybe i pick up a few at andy's.. but i'm just starting out again and i need a lot of things.. pots, bark, sphag, kool-logs, the list grows.. sheesh

i have two new masdies that are being shipped now. cassiope (coccinea x triangularis) and schroederiana (species). i love the schroedy, it's semi-mini. fairly well heat tolerant both these, as i've read, we'll find out.

All those are from my past collection. Long story, but life happens and i had to let go of all of them *sniff*... but started back up a few years ago...

Yeah, I'm goin to the santa barbara show, won't get there til sunday. And I may go down to SD for Andy's open house, too. not sure yet on that one...

those are awesome hybrids, because of you talking about them so much I may try masdies with my current outdoor set up now! (actually just today I realized I have a very shady spot that needs something LOL)

Ahh. I see. Kind of same story with me! Funny.. rebuilding reinvention mode.

Enjoy SB. My fave place in California.

Only cassiope hybrid. Schroederiana is species. Costa Rica area I believe. Likes more shade, but supposed to be somewhat heat tolerant.. lower elevation growth indigenously. The cassiope because of triangularis mix? (or is it the coccinea.. I forget) is a bit more tolerant as well, relatively speaking.

Here two cool photo links to masdie's I found, both hybrid and species..

Masdevallia
Gallery Masdevallia, Jostia and Porroglossum orchids Photo Gallery by Pieter C. Brouwer at pbase.com

Kool. Maybe we find way to hook up at SD/Andy's.

Your masdies are beautiful. I am hopping to get mine to coming back. I re-potted mine this time mixing spagh and tree fern. Most of my roots looked not to bad. And I have 2 spiking, fingers crossed.

I'm not sure where people are at, but I always think masdies would do well in s/h, but haven't really heard of people doing that, or maybe they are here and I just haven't done a proper search lol.

If you're addressing me, shannon, again i sadly don't have those masdies anymore... but thank you. They were awesome plants. masdevallia caesia being my favorite, although i'll have dig up my photos of that one...

Tree fern was my fav media until it came out how not so renewable of a resource it is... I would grow everything in that if i could get away with it... but nowadays i'll grow things in granite stone, even pleuros, planted in a larger pot with sphag or sitting on top of spag, or just watering often. i'm sick of using bark, but I've seen happy masdies in bark, and a grower up near, as another friend/grower told me, claims it's one of the best for masdies (hawkin hill?)

paphy, yeah, I'll keep you posted if I go down, it'll be sunday though as i usually work saturdays. Supposedly they're having win tasting friday if you do end up going then... lol... what a mix of wine and orchids... cha ching for andy's perhaps...

sorry I knew one of them was a species, but was just writing a quick reply! the cassiope, and pretty much anything with wings is always cool to me! the schroederiana is pretty amazing, anything from costa rica, central america, i think can be a bit more adaptable for warm... i remember visiting puerto rico and going into the el yunque and it being fairly warm at higher elevations, even saw some lepanthes flowering, although don't recall any masdevallias...

Infracta is probably of the most warm and adaptable masdies, if you like the look of it, and it's a sequential bloomer, it's hybrids are probably just as adaptable. I'll probably finally get a wendlandiana and herradurae either at sboe show or andy's, both small growers that are warm growing.

I just realized that I made a mistake. I have 7 species masdies and I was thinking of M. uniflora and mixed it up with my M. glandulosa. The uniflora is the one that did not like the heat. The glanulosa has been very hardy so far. I apologize for the confusion. I hope you do try the glanulosa and it works well for you, my big mistake.

Yeah, makes sense as the glandulosa i think is what made the hybrid i grew handle heat ok. thanks for clarifying...

wintergirl, now your masdies you're growing attached to kool logs or potted in them?

All of my Masdevallia are in s/h and have responded well to it. Undoubtedly there is some helpful evaporative cooling from keeping them this way.

---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

No problem, I'm becoming a sink or swim orchid keeper. I have certain conditions I can provide, and an orchid will thrive in them or it won't. I do as much research as I can to keep from making truly poor choices, but once I pull the trigger the plant is going into the rotation with other plants that like the same conditions. For a Masdevallia that means being outside all summer.

The ones growing on a Kool-log are attached to the side with a small amount of s. moss. I don't think it would be a good idea to place a plant inside as they are narrow, ect. I do have a couple in clay pots with clay beds in the bottom and s. moss on top.

I apologize I think you said that already and I forgot... tend to be on here sporadically and don't go through entire threads and remember things properly, apologies to everyone!

"No problem, I'm becoming a sink or swim orchid keeper. I have certain conditions I can provide, and an orchid will thrive in them or it won't. I do as much research as I can to keep from making truly poor choices, but once I pull the trigger the plant is going into the rotation with other plants that like the same conditions." - subrosa

Exactly my same sentiments! I've had enough changing my life for certain difficult orchids!

Can someone help me refresh this senioritis prone mind of mine and tell me what s/h is? haha

I'm with you there u bada. Bark breaks down too easily.. and I think it takes a kind of finesse to match it up well size-wise with what the roots prefer.

I thought Hawk Hill was back east.. like, New England area..

Okay! :dance13:

Oh, I like infracta. Thanks for pointing me to it. Nice compact flower. Search says from Brazil area and about 3" tall top-to-bottom. C/I grower. Seems there are natural color varieties? I'm guessing the red to be most popular? Including pix, one shows it growing on tree.

s/h = semi hydroponic

HydroLog
 

Thnx wintergirl. :)

I found this link showing what the fellow is calling 'HydroLog'.

https://www.orchidsforum.com/threads...nidifica.9757/

If you scroll down to bottom it shows how he makes a kind of 'kool-log' out of foam! The same kind a florist uses. He hot glues sides all up, makes a wire hanger. Then wraps the 'log' (which is hollowed out) with some sphag moss. The moss is then overlaid with coconut husk. He explains he sticks the roots through the coconut husk so that they can grow in the sphag.

What do you guys think?? Certainly the nidifica looks happy.. :)

Not too keen on coconut husk but that plant looked great.

I know. ALL this guys plants look picture perfect. He has highly specialized grow rooms. Anyway, I don't think you need so much husk, maybe none at all?

Yeah me don't like coco fiber, breaks down fast and doesn't hold that much moisture... The florist stuff hold too much moisture I'd think... Like rock wool and eventually compacts... But good for this guy!

M. veitchiana is the species that got me interested in the genus, but I quickly figured out I'd cook it. Then I saw M. Cheryl Shohan 'Red Hot Mama' at a bargain price on EBay and took a shot. It thrived all summer and bloomed this past January. I don't know how to post a link on my phone, but you can see a pic in the December entry to my Bloom of the Month 2015 thread. Sadly the pic got mistakenly deleted from my phone.

Well I guess I will see how I like the tree fern. I have enough to last a life time I believe. J&L used it and I'm always kind of nervous about straight spagh. I also didn't get mine re-potted in time. I'm thinking these should probably be re-potted every year with as much water as they need. I also really think my problem is humidity as well. I do have a humidifier that runs right over the top of them. It is molding the window but mine all have black spots on them.

Some grow not so bad and I know my space is cool enough most of the time. It's 65 degrees at the moment even though it is 71 in the house. I don't think last summer they ever got higher than 76 degrees. But I think humidity and then when that sun shines in.

Here's some I have re-bloomed. See the dark tips on the leaves, do you think this is humidity or heat?

I am and yes, you are correct. I'm growing my veitchiana in the same light that I grow my cattleyas and dendrobiums. The Maui Lollipop also thrives in this light. For now, I want a lot of leaf growth from my veitchiana, not too worried about blooms. I'll be happy if the leaf count doubles over the next year or two.

When I get black spots on my masdie leaves it is generally from too much moisture in the leaf area, lack of air. When I lost leaves due to heat they just dropped leaves really fast.

I have a little fan blowing at them. I didn't have this at first but have had it since this summer. Also if the wind is blowing in the right direction it will blow in the cracks of the window. May be the fog on the leaves is to much?

Could be, I try to keep the moisture off the leaves.

No-Pro-mwa, I think that is a spectacular assortment, especially on a windowsill in Wyoming!

When I got those dark spots on my amabilis it was a result of a seller/buyer miscommunication. Only took a few hours of direct sun all at once and it stressed the plant. If I had more gradual intro to the sun it might have been ok, but I'm gun shy now and simply have plant 70% shaded sun, it loves it! Anyway, to me the spots speak of heat. But that's only because I've yet had personal experience with humidity problems.. which I'm sure at some point I'll get that lesson too. lol

Nice blooms No-Pro!

---------- Post added at 02:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

Most of these Masdies live in the cloud forest so they will have times plenty of moisture on leaves but I think because they love a lot of air movement the wet condition constantly gets dried off. If they never get dried off then I can see it could be too moist environment for what makes them happy. Your fan should help a lot.

Subrosa that is a large bloom! Beautiful color. I can't quite tell, is the spike coming from the plant in leca? Do you know the parents of this hybrid? .. assuming one of them is vietchiana.. so, coccinea that's crossed with perhaps with another species??

Here is the 'Red Hot Mama' bloom pic Subrosa is referring to.

The plant is indeed in leca, on the far right. The parentage as I understand it is (xanthina x veitchiana) x 'Red Wing'. 'Red Wing' is coccinea x anfracta.

Thanks for that info Subrosa. If you know, which of these species behind your plant would you say is typical January blooming (winter) ?

Thanks so much. I was kind of proud of myself until they started to get really bad looking. Which was last summer when the sun would shine through the window in the early morning. So I started putting them out on the porch at night then several times I found them blown over and my poor Dracuvallia out of it's pot. It really is no wonder they look this way. A couple of them don't look to bad however.

Thanks paphy. I am really just thinking they are still trying to come back from the trauma as there leaves are never wet. The fog just is over them and they all needed a re-pot. At present they are all getting new growth and the Red Wing is spiking and also my ignea which I have never bloomed before and it was one of the first ones I got. If they don't blast. I had several buds on the Dracuvallia but I only got the one to open, all the rest blasted and all my last ones on my hirtzii did to.