Masdevallia culture, cool growers outdoor culture and Kool logs

[u bada]

So Paphy, Wintergirl and i were discussing on another thread I posted on masdevallia erinacea kool logs then morphed into masdie culture outdoors... not sure where to put this but for maximum involvement (I hope) I'm placing it here...

We left off at a point where I mentioned you should see how SBOE and Andy's grow things outdoors...

And wintergirl was talking to us about kool logs, while paphy was wondering how it works, what it's made of, etc.

masdevallia erinacea in bloom

Also RandomGemini's thread on her masd. maui lollipop also was a discussion on masdie growing

Masdevallia Maui Lollipop in Bud
----

So to answer estacion seca's inquiry... Andy's and SBOE basically just grow many of their cool growers in open frame structures and not much else, well both areas are crammed with plants and there is shade cloth or overhanging trees and that's about it. They don't water more than what you'd suppose they do, average 3x a week. Andy uses R/O, but dont think SBOE does anything with there water... in fact I recall Paul saying they use well water?

Andy has discussed a lot to me (albeit mostly by email) that many of the plants are subjected to higher or lower temps that they're suppose to handle in wild and do fine. When I was there last summer it was 80-90 and still felt that way in cool grower area and cool gh (Dracs are in a very shady GH. Don't recall humidifiers or swamp coolers or anything...

I'm in santa barbara a few times a year and even there temps and humidity is up and down despite how coastal it is.
---------

to jump around, and discuss something from random gemini's post...

Originally Posted by RandomGemini

I believe my veitchiana had problems because it was too wet. It's hard to keep a masdie too wet, but I drowned the root system every other day to help get the mealybugs it was infested with to surface. This helped deal with the largest portion of the population, but I believe that the side effect was root and leaf rot. I stopped doing the soaking and switched to treating the plant with Bayer Rose and Flower. Managed to save two leaves and about five good roots. I purchased the plant in a five inch pot. It's now potted in a two inch pot. I hate that, but I finally managed to get it back to happy.

It survived my 100 degree summer just fine, last year but I grow it indoors in the AC.

I've grown a fair amount of masdies in the day, mostly in growing cases, but attempted some in a double potted method I learned once upon a time- the potted plant in sphag set in a larger pot. The sphag holds moisture around the pot without the roots sitting in water, and the sphag adds humidity around plant... well, didn't work for me and i think it's because the roots really were too wet.

probably as is the case of SBOE and Andy's is that outside the breezes make the difference during the heat, how they keep them more moist I'm not sure but I suppose it's worth asking when I'm there next.

----

Lastly for this long post, if anyone wants to talk about kool logs to add what wintergirl discusses feel free too... I'm curious about them as Paphy is... definitely may be a solution to growing masdie's in warmer temps...

[WhiteRabbit]

I don't have much experience with Masdies, but I do believe that air circulation is very helpful during warm - hot temps.

[Subrosa]

My Masdevallia saw temps in the upper 90s a couple times outdoors last summer and never blinked. In fact they thrived. They were all hybrids or intermediate growers. I have them in leca which no doubt provided evaporative cooling, and they saw the natural night time temp drop.

[Paphy]

Subrosa, how many days duration at those plus 90's temps last summer? Did you use humidifier trays underneath the pots as well, or just leca in a pot with the plant only? Did you maintain the same light strength or did you modify with more shade? Thnx.



---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

wintergirl, I don't know if you made it over to this thread move or not but do you have any pics of your k-log and live moss tray setup? Are you growing indoors, outdoors, both?

---------- Post added 03-03-2016 at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was 03-02-2016 at 11:45 PM ----------

Originally Posted by u bada

So to answer estacion seca's inquiry... Andy's and SBOE basically just grow many of their cool growers in open frame structures and not much else, well both areas are crammed with plants and there is shade cloth or overhanging trees and that's about it. They don't water more than what you'd suppose they do, average 3x a week. Andy uses R/O, but dont think SBOE does anything with there water... in fact I recall Paul saying they use well water?

Makes sense that SBOE is fine with the well water there. Ph is more neutral, less sodium. Actually really good water they have in that area. You start getting south toward LA and beyond and monitoring phosphorus levels, (adjusting fert combo, etc) is more crucial because the Water District treats so heavily.

Originally Posted by u bada

Andy has discussed a lot to me (albeit mostly by email) that many of the plants are subjected to higher or lower temps that they're suppose to handle in wild and do fine. When I was there last summer it was 80-90 and still felt that way in cool grower area and cool gh (Dracs are in a very shady GH. Don't recall humidifiers or swamp coolers or anything...

During phone call with Andy we discussed imperative to have gradual transition to the more extreme conditions, that the plants to have ability, by and large, to adapt. We didn't get specie specific but I'm guessing some have that ability moreso than others. Just guessing though.

Originally Posted by u bada

I've grown a fair amount of masdies in the day, mostly in growing cases, but attempted some in a double potted method I learned once upon a time- the potted plant in sphag set in a larger pot. The sphag holds moisture around the pot without the roots sitting in water, and the sphag adds humidity around plant... well, didn't work for me and i think it's because the roots really were too wet.

u bada are you saying you take a sphag potted plant and then put it into another sphag potted larger pot? so that there is a sphag 'barrier' between the two pots?

Originally Posted by u bada

probably as is the case of SBOE and Andy's is that outside the breezes make the difference during the heat, how they keep them more moist I'm not sure but I suppose it's worth asking when I'm there next.

oh I'm beginning to think breeze is very much a big factor in outdoor success with the masdies. There's a grower here in Huntington Beach that keeps vietchiana's and they grow very fine but are reluctant to bloom. Just before the appropriate seasonal time he moves them to a friend's place in San Clemente who's spot is a natural constant cooler breeze corridor and, voila! they start blooming whereupon he then moves them back to his place in HB to enjoy!

I think the whole thing is very interesting because my one masdie (so far, have more on the way), an amabilis is blooming very nicely right now and all the culture sheets describe it as needing almost exact conditions as vietchiana. Grows in same indigenous Peru locale, etc.

My thought is, because I purchased it from Andy, who's conditions, 100 miles south, are pretty much similar to Huntington Beach, my plant didn't skip a beat. So far anyway..

[RandomGemini]

I am finding that my masdies that I am growing in net pots with hydroton in the bottom of the pot for weight, are growing the most vigorously. My Maui Lollipop has about a million roots and grows new leaves all the time. The veitchiana is growing much more slowly. They receive the same water and the same light, but the veitchiana is potted in a clay pot. That's the only difference in their culture. They receive the same water, fertilizer and light. They're growing in the same windowsill.

[wintergirl]

Originally Posted by RandomGemini

I am finding that my masdies that I am growing in net pots with hydroton in the bottom of the pot for weight, are growing the most vigorously. My Maui Lollipop has about a million roots and grows new leaves all the time. The veitchiana is growing much more slowly. They receive the same water and the same light, but the veitchiana is potted in a clay pot. That's the only difference in their culture. They receive the same water, fertilizer and light. They're growing in the same windowsill.

Originally Posted by Subrosa

My Masdevallia saw temps in the upper 90s a couple times outdoors last summer and never blinked. In fact they thrived. They were all hybrids or intermediate growers. I have them in leca which no doubt provided evaporative cooling, and they saw the natural night time temp drop.

I really think the big difference is hybrids are less fussy and species need what they need.

[Subrosa]

I didn't use a humidity tray, and I put the plants where they receive no direct sun. One thing to consider in regards to the alleged tolerance of hybrids to warmer temps. If you cross two cool growing Masdevallia the odds are high that each resulting clone will be a cool growing hybrid. There will naturally be a variance in all traits including this one. Another thing is that not all Masdevallia species are cool growers. I've acquired two warm growing species, M. herradurae and M. tonduzii that I'm growing alongside the hybrids. I plan on adding M. glandulosa in the near future, another warm grower.

[wintergirl]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

I plan on adding M. glandulosa in the near future, another warm grower.

They say it's "intermediate" but I found when I was growing them last summer they were doing great until we had a couple of hot days. They were grown inside but the room did get warmer for a few days, but no other plant was bothered and I am in Northern Indiana so it wasn't even that hot really. It almost killed the plant. I quickly bought a Kool-log and since then it stopped declining and is making a slow recovery.

[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by wintergirl

They say it's "intermediate" but I found when I was growing them last summer they were doing great until we had a couple of hot days. They were grown inside but the room did get warmer for a few days, but no other plant was bothered and I am in Northern Indiana so it wasn't even that hot really. It almost killed the plant. I quickly bought a Kool-log and since then it stopped declining and is making a slow recovery.

In some cases plants which require cool temps actually require a sufficient temperature drop at night. Constant moderate warmth can be worse than spiking higher during the day and cooling off at night.

[Paphy]

Originally Posted by RandomGemini

I am finding that my masdies that I am growing in net pots with hydroton in the bottom of the pot for weight, are growing the most vigorously. My Maui Lollipop has about a million roots and grows new leaves all the time. The veitchiana is growing much more slowly. They receive the same water and the same light, but the veitchiana is potted in a clay pot. That's the only difference in their culture. They receive the same water, fertilizer and light. They're growing in the same windowsill.

Hi RG - When you say 'net pots' are you referring to the plastic pots that are like a cage, you know with square cutouts all around? and, I'm assuming for you're using sphag that goes over the leca, correct?

I hear veitchiana is a notorious slower grower within Masdie genus. As has been brought up, they (as well as many others) tend to require 15-20 degree difference in day/night temp to stimulate blooming. In my readings I see veitch's like a brighter light as well, not so much higher temp, just brighter.