Too Early to Hazard a Guess About This Paph?
 

Hi,
I guess this is premature, but, for the first time since finding it tiny and withered years ago, I finally yearn to know what this Paph might be! Well, ballpark.

I don’t suppose it’s possible to hazard identity info just from the usual two buds emerging, right? I should wait until the first bud actually opens, yes? And THEN make pics.

As I posted elsewhere, I now have two pots of this after dividing last year, each now filled with mature fans. This, my #81, at least is about to bloom on only one fan; the other, my #80…..just jammed with fans producing more leaves, and more fans despite there is almost no room.

Again, to be diplomatic & kind--- the colors, to me, they are a bit muddy including the pink of the pouch. But I grow it with the same sense of privileged devotion as I grow everything…..cause, I rescued it form the trash and it cannot get up and leave and go elsewhere.

PS….I should add, in case it’s helpful to anyone, see pics….I use wire garment hangers in many elements of my growing (including hanging plants from ceiling hooks)…and including making stem supports for some orchids as per this one. They are FREE. Free=GOOD. I just make a longer one every coupla days as the stem matures. Bonus: no metal touches the stem….given the cheap wire hangers (find tons in the trash in the metal recycling bin) are coated. All you need is a pair of pliers.

It is always nice to read about a plant's provenance and to see a picture of the plant. It would be difficult to identify your plant but may be possible when it comes into bloom. There are a lot of Phap. experts on the board. Good suggestion in re-purposing wire hangers.

Few NOIDs can be identified with certainty. At this point, the bud looks like a sequential multifloral. The most common one around is probably Paph Pinocchio.

It IS a sequential multifloral; but it only produces two buds. Many thanks for offering even that guess! I will now follow up!

Edit: Just delved and found Paph Pinocchio, it's charming! But not mine. Mine has longer petals and different dorsal. Not to worry, I will make another pic when the first flower opens.

I do know the near impossibility of identifiying NOIDS, esp Phals.....which is why I would never ask about most of mine.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

Yes! the cheap wire hangers most dry cleaning businesses use, are infinite in their re-purposing potential, esp in growing orchids.

I will wait until the first flower opens and ripens and then made pics. In this case, I would like more info simply to see if I can learn to help it produce more blooms on more fans based on its identity.

Thanks, Matt!

It's a beautiful plant and extra special because it's a rescue. Congratulations! Thanks for the hanger tip too.

I so appreciate your kindness; all 33 of my Phals are rescues; coming upon a discarded half dead orchid in the trash of my building way back started this obsession.

Both pots....I divided this NOID over a year ago, are normally healthy, but I am now wanting to know more about it (them) simply because it is such a shy boomer. If I understand it better, I might be able to be more helpful to it. Them...my#s 80 and 81.

Tho again, frankly, it isn't that pretty (you will soon see), nor something I would have chosen, but they choose you.:)

Of late, I am finding some very strange things. Well, strange presentations.

YES!!!!! The late Ms. Crawford notwithstanding:rofl:, wire hangers are infinitely useful. I should also say, since this stem is maturing so fast, this time, instead of making a new support every couple of days, what I am doing, since it is so secure in the mix which is filled with roots now, is just raising it, prying it up gently, every day to just beneath the bud. When I no longer can, in this event, I will make a new one. When we insert a new support, we risk hurting roots, remember!

One thing the wire hangers can not be used for: making 3 wire plastic pot hangers. The diameter is too big and they are not even close to being as flexible as what we get commercially.

Main thing re the stem supports: be very careful at every juncture not to touch or disturb/traumatize the bud.
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Edit: I forgot to mention, the petals on this NOID are freckled. I can almost not wait for first flower to open; I am positive someone here can tell me something about it....after all these years; better late than never!

Wait! I've been delving on the net....and just came upon something which, if memory serves from this NOIDs last bloom, but this is hard to believe....kinda resembles mine!

I am embarrassed to say, I don't find this Toni Semple 'Rosi' pretty either:(---unless its in person colors are brighter than what we see in in the image--- but, it is AWARDED. Wut?:shock:

I know far less about multi floral Pahs (cept for the famous species) than I do everything else I grow. I really like the bulldogs. ALL of them.:blushing:
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Edit: OMG! Just found the Toni
Semple hybrid crossed with a species in a uTube video! cept that plant is enormous....I SWEAR, that looks very much like a bigger version of my NOID! But mine never produced more than two...perhaps once, three.. flowers.

OrchidWeb - Paph. Toni Semple x liemianum - YouTube

But are those colors not muddy? Same colors as MY muddy colors! Same petals, I think, same dorsal!

Wow...unless my normally good memory has suddenly died, and I am wrong and that is not my mystery puppy, I am GOB SMACKED.:roll:

Now I want that bud to mature and open even more! so I can put up a pic!!!!

Clearly, I do not get what is considered desirable in multi floral Paphs by the orthodoxy.

Sorry, I continue to delve, just found yet another depiction of this Toni Semple 'Rosi" I just learned about, I will put it up: I mean it, I think this is my NOID or very close.

That neither the colors, nor even the shape make my knees weak or my heart melt....is a whole other thing.

But now, this little adventure/Mystery... has become even more exciting! Well, I mean, for me.;)
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Edit:.....or perhaps this Song of Love one:
Orchid Paphiopedilum Song OF Love Flowering Size | eBay

I am going to try to not obsess over this until the poor first bud matures and opens.

NOW.....I am positive I will find out what it is! Pretty much. and that, after all these years.....will be thrilling.

That I will not find it prettier....is a whole other topic.

I've said it at least a thousand times but I'll say it again...trying to ID an orchid via a pic only is a completely unreliable ID. There are simply too many hybrids out there that appear similar/same so feel free to delve all you wish but you are driving yourself nuts over something that is getting you no where.

You've said you have no desire to take your plants to judging...so why the obsession in finding the name info? It's not necessary unless you are getting the plant judged and/or you want to do breeding w/the plant. You know you have a paph...you've obviously grown it very well for quite some time...so why chase the uncatchable?

There are some orchids than can be ID'd via a pic only but that is not the norm and it's usually only w/species. When you start looking at hybrids...forget it. It's never going to be a reliable ID. You might be able to ascertain some aspect of the parentage but you will most likely *never* have a definitive ID.

Hi, katrina! What you say is a given. I've already shared, I have minus 11 desire to know what any of my now 33 Phals are.

But....as I've also shared, in this atypical event re #s 80 and 891....my clear desire is to know something more about it with the thought of then, being able to better abet its journey!

Plus, when finally delved on the net, I was stunned to come upon the hybrids whose images I put up.....which resemble mine almost exaclty. Well, if memory serves.

We shall soon see!

Happy desire to know, to chase data, is a subjective phenomenon. It is also never arbitrary or, in this case, capricious. This....is now a heady mini adventure, and surely nothing to apologize for, given I understand it, and I think, it's All Good!:D

Also, I get that my new desire to know...esp which species may be in the background, also owes to my new, gestating love for the bulldogs!

Formerly, my very few Paphs were almost an afterthought. That....is now changing!

I also don't think any human is meant to be the arbiter of what any other human is moved to know. But WHY we are moved to this or that....is, I think, always meaningful.

I never even suggested what you should or shouldn't be moved to know. Get moved away all you wish! I simply said it is a futile task. Completely and utterly futile. And anyone that knows anything about identifying orchids will tell you the very same thing.

So, no, I didn't tell you what you should be moved to know but I certainly did ask why the obsession. Why did I ask that? I suppose I'm a little surprised (taken aback, if you will!) to read about all this web searching you are doing. And, for what? To find out the name of something you've described at less than desirable? Quite frankly, after having read much of your writings on the forum, I had imagined you as more well read on orchids and all the complexities involved in identification. My bad.

So, sure....be moved all you wish. Search, search away. Spend countless hours in front a computer screen comparing pics that might not even be labelled correctly. Bottom line...it's not possible to ever be 100% positive of an identification based on googled images. Especially when you're dealing w/hybrids. Like it or not, that's a fact!

I feel REALLY BAD that apparently I failed to explain all of it clearly. I truly did try!!! No part of this new mini passion eludes me, and I did try to delineate all of it accurately.

Nobody else HAS TO get it....I get it.

And katrina, identification need not be exact, just knowing more will help me tend it better.

And, pls note: 'Identification' has been included here as a dedicated forum, despite the inherent limitations of any such journey.

Also, whatever comes my way half dead, I try to save, and I grow with the same devotion as everything else I grow. That I would not have chosen to buy this....becomes moot in the face of that.

I understand all my many passions, including those that present anew. ....I would never try to legislate any.

Again, I thought I explained all of it accurately in response to your initial post....I feel bad I seem to have failed.:(

Oh please...you have been perfectly clear. You have stated that you believe you will positively ID your paph by looking at pics on the web. I quote>>>

“NOW.....I am positive I will find out what it is! Pretty much. and that, after all these years.....will be thrilling.”.

The process of identifying an orchid is far more complex than anything you can see in just a picture. It involves highly detailed descriptions and measurements of every plant part, every flower part…EVERY. SINGLE. PART…from the roots to the pollinia hidden behind the anther cap. And that’s just to ID a species!

When you dig into hybrids…it becomes far more complicated and messy and there is no way anyone can look at a hybrid…even w/measurements…and tell you it is Paph X. Not unless you are dealing w/the grower/hybridizer of said plant. Hell, even some people who do the crossings sometimes lose their info and/or forget what they have crossed. It happens.

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that most F1 generation plants have a tendency to resemble one parent over another more and most times when a hybridizer is making a cross they are doing so w/a vision of what they are trying to improve upon…color, shape, size, etc. Many times hybridizers have to go much deeper than primary crossing to achieve the vision they have in mind. Complex hybrids are named so for a reason and when you get 3,4,5, or more generations deep you can have so many different species/other hybrids in the mix that the plant can EASILY be misidentified simply due to the complexity of the gene pool.

Look, there is nothing wrong w/a NoID...they are just as beautiful as a named orchid and they can bring just as much pleasure and satisfaction. The only issue w/an “unknown” is the fact that it can never be sent to judging. If you need names then buying from reputable and reliable growers is the only way to ensure an ID of a plant. And, truth be told, wven w/the most reputable of growers and the best of the best…mistakes happen because, well, humans make mistakes but it is certainly far more reliable then looking at pics on the web. The nice thing w/the reputable grower and/or hybridizer him/herself is that they can usually give you the correct ID should a mistake have been made.

What you are doing in this thread (and your phal thread) is positioning your ‘seek and find adventures’ as fact. You are absolutely stating your finds as if it they are definitive and I find it disconcerting. What you believe is all fun and games…stays on the web FOREVER and in 6 months (or whenever) someone else does a search…finds your pics and words…viola!...they think they know the name of their NoID. Again, this behavior only perpetuates an already overwhelmingly serious problem w/in the hobby.





The very nature of identifying an orchid IS an exact science and to state otherwise is asinine.

As for knowing more…I thought you said you’ve been growing this plant for years. You said it’s grown so well you’ve had to divide it. You’ve bloomed it, right? Sounds to me like you've got it down so what more could you possibly need to know? Especially given the fact you feel that whatever you’re looking for doesn’t need to be exact? If it doesn’t need to be exact then why look at all?

Katrina, I am taken aback by first, the intensity of your upset in any of this. For me, what I am moved to in any of this....and why is clear. And again, all good and positive.

The unalloyed desire to learn more....whenever that presents, to me, is always positive and a gift.

I have also shared....while I now have two pots of this hybrid, each jammed with fans, there is only the one new bloom (two bids as usual) emerging from one fan in one pot. My feeling is, learning more about the species involved, might help me keep them happier. Especially, since I've now discovered something which looks almost identical may bed a primary cross.

As we say, to thine own self be true. I am an inveterate seeker and rarely linear in any of it. I get paid to research and share the results, and in many and diverse arenas.

I would never try to convince YOU, katrina to not comport with your very clear, and vociferously stated tenets re any of this!

Again this board has this dedicated Identification forum, that inclusion was not arbitrary, yes?

Whatever I learn in this journey, I already have....despite it may not be a precise identification of this individual hybrid, will be precious.

Perhaps, given the intensity of your upset, you might contact the principals of this community and make a case for just doing away with this forum. If moved, why not? You are surely entitled to your opinions on this! As I am to mine.

As for that I experience all such default data chasing journeys every day as heady: the joy in those journeys, for me, is never antithetical to serious as a heart attack foundation. I am in no way some dilettante.:)

Working on a hunch... Look for pictures of Paph Mamie Wilson or Paph Song of Love and see how they compare.

Addenda:

As per example of the always right delving on my own (tho I haven't used anything Google in 2 years, including the search engine)....I am now convinced my hybrid is strong with Paph lowii, perhaps even a parent.

Not sure yet re the Paphiopedilum haynaldianum influence, but now having read culture tips re the first species, I am already more informed!

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------


O! Thanks so much! Somewhere above....I shared I came upon the Song of Love and it does bear resemblance, I believe. I will now learn about the first.

But, as I just posted, that I am now convinced mine has major lowii influence, and having learned about good culture for that species.....I am learning and owning important info I will now employ!

Bud/stem are maturing very fast....in not too long (I can't wait) I will be able to offer actual images of this flower! I am excited!:waving:biggrin:
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Edit: just saw image of the Mamie Wilson....not sure of its breeding, but mine has a pink pouch and my dorsal doesn't resemble the one I see.

Again, knowing the likely parentage, esp if a parent is a species--I vote for lowii as of right now----would be soooo helpful!
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Just made new pic....I am so excited by this organic progression this bloom given my new journey....both buds now visible. I know the leaf I tied back to make the emerging of the new bud easier is not happy, I will soon release that leaf. (I just released the leaf, the bud is above it now anyhow.)
_____________________________________Edit: Re Song of Love: just saw another depiction with very bright pink pouch and petal tips. then, scrolled up to the link to the Song of Love I found on ebay, and even that is too pink. Mine is not that hybrid....Just learned lowwi likes to grow WARM. I have grown these two pots very cool in the winter. While it may not be the species, I now think I've been growing it way too cool all winter!

I did not know better.

And, I meant the sepals are freckled, spotted....I think I said petals.

I wouldn't call my protests vociferous...that seems a bit too shrewish. I prefer...passionate.

For me...amateur taxonomy is like nails on a chalkboard. And, unfortunately, the problem is further compounded by the misinformation that abounds on the web. :duh::duh::duh:

Hi for a change on this. I know, borrrring, cause I just can't wait for this puppy to open its first flower to elicit feedback! But, given what I have recently learned....chasing data for the first time on this, again, positive big loweii influence, tho no way as big as lowii.....perhaps one of the Toni Semples; there appear several varieties of that:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31129420@N03/6610439161/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Paph...w=1182&bih=511

Re above (I almost never use Google re search engine now); if memory serves, mine, I think, resembles the second from the left, top row Toni Semple.

Took mine 4 years to just come back to health from near death and make a flower....and that was long ago. But see, I do not get why people consider this wonderful or pretty. I grow mine (now two) with the same devotion as I do everything, I just never found mine pretty. Which is why I never took its pic. Mine is kinda dull re colors. But so are some of the Tonis I now see online!

Again, taste is so subjective! That rocks, cause were it not, we would all be moved to grow the same things.

Feign interest, I am putting up its reality as of 5 mins ago. Hadda make a longer stem support again....but they are free so no biggie.

Does anyone here grow Paph Toni Semple? Any variety? It is a primary cross.

I sang some R & B to it, and danced....A Jill Scott track.... but, incredibly I don't think it made much of a difference, re hurry up!!!!:rofl:

PARANOID Update question:

Well, I generally just augment and let things evolve organically and am thrilled by that, but as we know, I am now obsessed by getting a pic of this NOID flower up to elicit feedback.

Switched the stem support to wire stake....but, I guess I never noticed in previous blooms, doesn't the stem right behind the fist bud appear unusually skinny before its diameter normalizes?:(

(I SAID paranoid, but I am worried.)

Looks normal to me.

Brooke

I just Fed Exed you a Ferrari for this! Blessings on you!

I never focused with any kind of intensity of this plant before.

Thanks, Brooke!

Your focusing on the plant is making you paranoid.

Brooke

I know. I said. I truly am in touch in those ways. But the diameter of the stem just behind the first bud just suddenly looked so lame! It felt it was not getting enough nutrition. I guess it was always thus when I wasn't obsessing over this plant.:blushing:

Text me when the Ferrari arrives.

Hi for a change. I am totally aware how my obsession is boring the living dorsals out of everyone. :blushing:

But, came home and saw first bud starting to open....and, this sounds cray cray, cause I have a wicked amazing memory by all accounts...plus, I guess when the flower opens and ripens, it will be the muddy colors it has been in all previous blooms....despite the spotted petals.

But.... just from what is visible right now---maybe it improved caused it was depressed for so long I did not adore it--- and now at least I am obsessing over it;)---the pouch looks darker and less muddy pink than they have in the past.

I mean it!

Moved it around taking pics, hoping I could register color fidelity; the pic with the darker color is more the reality than the brighter one. I dunno.....but I need to chill until first bud opens, ripens and I can put up pics....then learn how much Lowii it appears to have, etc. so I can grow both pots better.

Again, given what I remember from previous blooms, I can't believe what I see will end up the reality. But....maybe it's just, finally happier now.;)

Monday compulsive update: no need to comment until the first flower opens and matures; I am just on compulsive/obsessive autopilot.

I MEAN IT.:yikes: This NOID has CHANGED!!!! In every previous bloom pouch/petal tips has been sad, muddy, dull, DEPRESSED.

Today, the more visible colors appear clear! Some mysterious thing has happened between last bloom (before I divided it) and this one! The pouch and the petal tips are much deeper, richer, and more vivid than re any previous bloom! I am STUNNED. Need to see if the petal spots have clarified and if the dorsal is different.

I have never seen this level of metaphorphosing before. It’s a kind of miracle. See? If you hang in with devotion for enough years after they come yr way half dead, even if you do not love them…..miracles can happen!

I do not understand what happened here. At all.

OK, Please believe me when I say, for the life of me, I can not capture the actual colors of this flower. The pinks are, as usual, NOT BRIGHT. In very single pic I made, no matter where I held it... they look much brighter than they are. I do think they are a little brighter than in previous blooms, but not as much as just seeing the pouch led me to hope.

I will put some up. Do we all see the lowii influence? But, as always, these are small flowers, and she or he never makes more than two.

Thanks in advance for any and all takes.

OK, I think these reflect the not bright pink a little more accurately.
Not a lot, but a little.

Lovely!

This actually strongly suggests moquettianum to me crossed with a longer petaled something or other.

Thanks, Terri.....I reached out to someone I found out about whose life is about high paph end breeding. FAB guy, a true Renaissance person. I sent him pics. Wish I could find his first response, I thought I had kept it, but can't find it, that's making me crazy (the lowii influence is obvious) but I will post his second (the petals aren't that long, really):

You may know it, but I will mention it in case not. The species P. chamberlainianum in the Section Cochlopetalum is a bugger for the taxonomists. Many taxonomists are “lumpers” and group most of the Cochlopetalums as one thing, and then break out the different looking varieties as under a Sub-section. i.e. P. primulinum, P. chamberlainianum, P. moquettianum, P. victoria mariae, P. victoria regenia would all be classified as Paph. chamberlainianum. However, the breakout would be shown as Paph. chamberlainianum v. primulinum, Paph. chamberlainianum v. chamberlainianum, Paph. chamberlainianum v. moquettianum, etcetera. Others simply state each one as a species, in and of itself. I tend not a “lumper”, and like to consider them as independent species. Your hybrid would probably have been made with P. victoria regenia, a variety of P. chamberlainianum.

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Edit: I am delving, found two more, one from before the first flower was even open; this guy, in every way nourishes every part of me: a true Class Act (and emotionally whole too), and with encyclopedic knowledge within his esoteric field.....waaaaaaay above my pay grade!

I’m getting perilously close to having a guess at what the culprit is. Need to see a bit more though. My best effort at this early stage is chamberlainianum or a similar sequential bloomer (some Cochlopetalum type) crossed to a multifloral like lowii or philippinense. Should be able to tell more when open, from dorsal, pouch, and petals when more formed and visible.

The chamberlainianum greatly reduces the size of its offspring as well, and adds great hybrid vigor, as you could testify to. The cross is called Paph. Burning Chamber. Thoughts on this?

OMG! Look what I just came upon on ebay! How closely does this resemble mine??? Much better color depiction the the pink/mauve than what I could manage.

Paphiopedilum Pinocchio x Lowii in Spike Orchid Plant | eBay

Just held mine up to the screen and made two bad pics with the other hand! LOOK AT THIS!!!!:yikes: Not simply close, in person, IDENTICAL.

Beautiful! :)

It does look the same, but you still cannot say what it is for sure because other hybrids involving lowii and a paph in the sequential flowering group will produce about the same looking flowers.

I think the closest you can go is lowii (which is obvious) and a member from cochlopetalum.

Even the one you found on eaby is a representative picture of that hybrid. While primary hybrids are much more uniform than more complex hybrids, they do show variations, especially in the shape, making it awfully difficult to tell.
The same goes with hybrids made with multifloral and sequential. It is just nearly impossible to tell because hybrids of this type is just so so similar in phenotype.

Many thanks!

You want the other POT OF IT? Cause right now, both pots could easily be divided again! This thing is taking over my whole apartment. It's like a special effect.:(

You have two pots of the same thing? Good for you cause it is pretty.

Well, thanks, but I have no space left. lol
I just started nurturing many babies. hahahaha

Two identical now, 3 1/2" Paph pots (I luv these pots); I divided last year; #80 and #81. But on one, #80, a bazillion fans only producing new leaves, not a bud in sight. I fear this is the plant, no, the plantS which will eat Manhattan.

I just made a pic after putting them close together, #80 is on the left. They are gettin a little scary, actually.:(
(CD is from one of my wind chimes, I replace the catchers with CDs. The orchids like wind chimes. Pretty sure.)

That can be a good thing.
Both groups involved in this hybrid readily clump and send up many spike all at the same time when mature and conditions are right.

You might have a big flower show in the future.

I am heartened by your optimism! I obsessively look into each crown of each fan in the other pot....close up, I see like a laser, and can right off tell if what is peeking out is yet another leaf or......what I hope for, buds!

This poor thing, long ago, when I found it, tiny, sad thing it was.....brought it back to health, took 4 years to produce its first bloom.

So, I think both pots are mature. If they get any more mature I will just put them in a salad with some Pesto.:dance13:

Too Early to Hazard a Guess About This Paph?
 

The debate rages on in the world of taxonomy. Currently Paph. chamberlainianum is considered a synonym for victoria regina, with the latter the officially recognized name. That said, Paph. chamberlainianum has a much darker rose pink pouch. There might be a picture in my album, if not I started a thread in the Paph forum, and there are pictures there. The color of the pouch on yours more closely resembles moquettianum or primulinum var purpurascens.

Whatever it is I really like it.

Well….all this raises what for me is a fascinating underlying issue in all of life: visceral, intuitive acuity versus formal academic data.

Having been raised by an academic mom….I am normally moved to chase those latter data, and certainly have no axes to grind re the gift of my formal education.
BUT, my take increasingly, is, be it the chops to be a keen differential diagnostician in medicine or growing plants well or interacting with any other living being, the former always trumps the latter in importance.

Remember, Einstein explained, he first INTUITED The Universe; the math, the physics…the formal, formulaic parts came LATER.

Many physicians excel academically, but cannot make a keen differential diagnosis, forget holistically, or be any kind of actual healer to save themselves. They are often estranged from the levels of richness, of communion, as per my new signature here via Proust--- which afford getting “it” fully and accurately in the ways that matter most.

Man’s need to categorize, label other living beings is what it is, but to me, that is always secondary to what may sometimes appear formally unfathomable but NEVER inaccessible. I have written about this phenomenon often.

Now, please know, for all the pics I have taken of this first (of two as always) flower….dozens, capturing the true color of the pouch and the petal ends continues to elude.:( Fact is, in person, it is a pale, kinda muddy mauve and, to everyone at my end, ALAS... not that lovely. Never has been.

But I grow everything in here, both the orchids I buy and ALL the creatures which come my way, the same: with acuity and devotion and always a sense of privilege exactly as if they were human guests.

U want the other pot?;) OMG.

Thanks, but no. I can barely take care of what I have.