Help needed before taking the decision of buying/building a terrarium/vivarium
 

Since long ago, I have been playing with the idea of having a vivarium in my flat. After reading several threads here and watching so many pictures of so many great terraria/vivaria here, I have seriously started to play with the idea to buy/build one for my orchid (I am just looking for a new excuse in order to buy more minis with high humidity needs :evil:). First I thought of the possibility of going for a cool/cold box, but it seems to be more complicated than what I want... so, I decided that if, it would be a warm one (I have an average temp in my apartment of 70-80F, and so far I have understood, the temp in the box would be slightly above it)

then I thought of making it simpel and buying a wardian case, but to be honest I do not like the look of them. This is what I have found in switzerland (sorry, only in german, but you can see the pics) Terrarientechnik - Orchidarium Orchidarium, 70x40x95 cm, zzgl Lichthaube (13 cm) OV01 ...but, as far as I know myself, 27 x 16 x 37 inches would qquickly become small, and if we keep in mind I would have to pay $1500 for it... hhhmmm...

so, I jumped on the next option: buying a terrarium and convert it into a nice vivarium. the candidate: Terrarientechnik - Standard Terrarium 120x60x100 LTST12060100 47 x 24 x 40 seems to be more realistic for my plans (and would match better the spot where it would be place)

so, here my question:

what exactly would I need in order to have it working and being suitable for orchids?

1. 2 ventilator: one blowing in and one blowing out? would that be enough or would it be necessary to add two more?
2. misting system or air fogger? if Fogger, what are the best options?
3. T5 tubes (2 4000 and 2 6000K)? or would it be enough with one of each? can they be placed directly on top of the terrarium or would need to be suspended? what would be the range of temps expected in the terrarium with both option?
4. How do you fertilize your plants?
5. How long can you leave the terrarium unattended, while on holidays?
6. Is there any especific points I should put especial attention to, which I have forgotten to mention aboce?

I know these are so many questions at once, but is all what went through my head when thinking about this project...

:shock: nothing?

I've been gone from computer for a while, Ramon, or I would have jumped on this one! :evil:

There have been several posts (mostly from members in your area) who have made their own tank. Your climate suggests that with proper ventilation to the outside (maybe through a window) you can achieve the really low temps that cool growers love. I am in envy of the chance you have to "pull this off".

Here are some thoughts:

1) Light will be the "bad guy" for a cool tank as you know. t5 lights get quite warm. So fans will be a must (not expensive, but don't skimp on them) and their position should help to keep most of the heat out of the tank.

2) A vent directly to the outside will give you the opportunity to keep tank nearly as cool as outside air. This can be blocked during summer, if your flat is cooler than outside.

3) To grow the really finicky minis that want/need cool/cold air, you will need to be sure you can keep humidity high and air movement strong. As humidity increases, so does the chance for mold. Even though cool/cold temps really don't favor mold development, they don't stop it either. Air movement plus fungicide use will help that.

4) All of the above suggest a totally custom made tank. I would suggest arylic (or whatever you call it there :biggrin: ) in 5mm or so thickness, if possible. Thinner is OK, but be prepared for major warping of the large side panels. At one point there was a thread from someone, I think in Norway, but maybe not. He made his own tank (quite elaborate, as I recall) from some plastic material. Basically it involves finding the material (hopefully local - or at least in your own country would help) and then the solvent to glue the seams. That usually is a material like Cyanoacrylate Glue. There are other solvents as well that are meant to weld acrylic.

5) I would personally opt for a setup that does not include anything but the targets for the culture you plan. What I mean is, don't try for cool-growing plus a few intermediates, unless you are certain the intermediates can grow under the cool conditions (some can.) I run a mainly intermediate to warm tank and the Draculas (cool-growing) survive, but will only bloom in winter when the tank temps drop. Please keep us informed of how you plan to proceed. I really encourage you to plan your own from scratch. You have lots of experience and are really ready to go out on your own and do something really neat. If you need any help with the drafting part and plans, let me know.

Hi Ross,

thanks a lot for that extensive explanation :) Actually, I had already decided I would go for a warm Tank. It would be placed in the center of my flat, and therefore I do not want to see any kind of pipes waving throught the flat to the outside (furthermore, summer can be quite hot and winter quite mild here too!). I had thought at the beginning of using a small fridge full of water and a pump to keep the water going trought a sort of "radiator" installed in the tank. But... I am always on the position that the plants get used to my conditions or they go to the trash can, and therefore I think it is already TOO much tech and energy invested for a couple of plants. Didn't like the idea either.

so, go for warm. ;) I know the main issues would be T5 producing too much heat, and mold... I had thought of keeping the T5 a couple of inches above the tank and a small ventilator blowing "fresh air" all the time between Tank and T5s. Then 1 or 2 ventilators blowing fresh air into the Tank (maybe from below) and one extracting air at the top, could help with air movement and further cooling of the tank. This of course would reduce humidity again, and is where the misting or the Fogger should work (no idea which would be better)

As per Methacrylate (also called Acrylic Glass or Plexiglass) or Glass... well, the tank should also be part of the Decoration. I think in this case glass is more suitable, as it has a better look, and methacrylate tends to be scratched too easily and would not look very nice in a short time. but maybe I am wrong here, and need further research from my side ;) Of course building it myself out of methacrylate would be more fun, and I can really make it as per me requirements (I have the experience, even if loooooong ago, when I used to help my two sisters building their models - both have studied architecture) lets see...

Let us know what your plans will be! I am also starting to build a terrarium but not something extremely fancy and high tech! I will try to post the progress of this on the board as well to get some more feedback. I agree with going for the int/warm tank!

I have two, look at my post two terrariums.
Here are some interesting links, is it what you are looking for.
Vivaria light and lighting at www.poison-frogs.com
Dutch vivariums
Terracom.tk
on this one click on the names on the left

wow! cool terraria...

ok, so far, I have been doing my homework... and have decided the following: Terrarium out of glass: 120X110X60 cm (WxHxD) gliding doors on both lateral, so that the front is only one large piece of glass (have already tried this setup with a box, and the side doors let me enough room to play with the content of the box (my arms are quite long ;))
On teh top of the terrarium I ill have a hood for the T5 lamps (4 tubes in total: 2 4000 and 2 6000K and 54 Watts each) This should provide enough light... but also enough heat :( therefore, two fans will be pulling air into the tank (one from each side, below the gliding doors) and then two other fans will pull air from the tank and blow it under the light hood. This should help to keep the air in movement in the tank, but also promote good ventilation under the light hood in order to cool it down a bit (If I see, that this is not enough cooling, one or two extra fans would be installed a posteriori).

Misting or fogging? First option will be misting several times a day. However, if I manage to find a fogger that I could install with a very large water reservoir this could be teh preferred gadget (The whole tank should be able to run independently for at least one week - as I do not want to be a slave of it and sacrifice my traveling and vacations :D) I have played with the idea of using a small freedge to cool down the water to be used with the mister system, but have not found a small cheap and efficient one so far (either too large or too energy ineficient) I'll keep my eyes open for it...

Plants? well, I think what I will do is wait until I have the terrarium running for one week or so, in order to have a better idea of the temperature and humidity cycles in it, and then decide which plants should be there... However, one is sure: moss and Selaginella must be there ;) if the tank happens to be cool enogh (depending whether I find the cooler for teh water, and the ventilation system works as expected) Masdies and Draculas will find a place in it. If it tends to be more in the warm side... there is a huge list of plants I could imagine having there... However, it will be my Miniatures-Kingdom ;) let's wait and see.. I hope I would have it already installed by November :) (I will start working on it only after mid september)

I'll keep you informed...

Ramón, I haven't chimed in here because my tanks are very basic - next to a window, so natural light, open top for air circulation, etc. I am not much help with the technical side of things... But, knowing you, I am sure that the one you put together is going to be fabulous! Keep us up to date as you proceed with your creation!

I can't wait to see what you come up with!

I really want to build one of these too, for cool growers. . .there's a lot to figure out!

Has there been any progress, Ramon? I think your plans sound fine. Fans blowing between lights and case as well as one fan blowing through case. You asked that question at the start and I failed to give my opinion. I have one inside case that blows 24/7 and a second that blows through the end wall toward outlet slots in ohter end to be sure all gases, etc are evacuated and humidity lowered at night. It only runs at night (lights out period).

Hi everybody, thanks for your comments. As I've just arrived from Paris last night I will only re-take my activities on this project by mid September or so. I have not been able to work on it during August (my whole brain was focused on french lessons) and I already know I will find a big mess at work tomorrow :( (my boss made a stop in Paris on her way Canada, only to let me know what was going on on the project and warn me of all the issues I will find - I think it was nice from her).

Ross, if I understood correctly, the fans in your terrarium only work at night, right? all night long?

Ramon, I'm really excited for you! It's a lot of work setting them up initially but well worth it! I agree that the only reason I set mine up was so I could buy more mini's!!! :evil:

:twocents: Based on my conditions and experience, I run my fans (two 4" fans) 24/7. Both of my fans pull air INTO the tank and my T5 lights don't generate any heat at all so there's no isues there. The temp in my tank is a constant 70 degrees and I use a fogger to maintain humidity which is usually around 85 percent...I fertilize my plants in the tank, I do not remove them - I do, however, dilute the normal doses and since I don't have an installed misting system, I mist my plants every morning with RO water and a little KLN - my plants seem very happy and bloom pretty frequently - since Florida and Michigan are nothing like Sweden :hmm my advice is to do what works for you and adjust things as needed.

:goodluck: and keep us posted to lots and lots of :photo: :photo: :photo:

first update...

today I had to stay at home and decided to start playing with some ideas for the terrarium...

I had already decided it would be made in glass and would be 47" x 23.5" x 43.5" (120 x 60 x 110 cm). For practical reasons, I think I will let it be done for me (if it is not too expensive - need to ask at some shops first)

(sorry, the text in the pics is in german as they are intended to be distributed to the potential manufacturers)

Pic 1: shows the general aspect of the construction.

Pic 2: This will be the top of the terrarium, with two long pieces of metalic grid for ventillation. A = front side; B = back side. If possible, the top should be removable, in order to facilitate some posterior works.
Two fans will be attached to the front grid, in order to extract air from the terrarium and blow it under the T5 tubes.

Pic 3: Shows the back wall with several perforations for cables, hoses and drainage. Important is to note the lower perforations: the two on the sides are intended to drain ecxesive water from the side-chambers which will be filled with Leca and act as two large flat S/H containers (they will be intended mainly for terrestrial plants as ferns, Selaginella, Begonia, Peperomia or similars - not yet decided). The prforation in the lower center planned for the water pump, which will take the water from the central chamber, pump it through a filter (installed bellow the terrarium, with all other technical gadgets) and then pump it again up to the top of the terrarium, in order to form a small water-fall, forming a shallow pond/aquarium in the middle chamber. Yes, I know, that's kitsch, but I like the idea :blushing: and think it would help to cool down the terrarium and increase humidity.

Pic 4: Both sides of the terrarium will have gliding doors (blue in the pic) with a below grid for ventilation. One fan at each side should blow fresh air into the system and help with the necessary air movement inside,

Pic 5: just playing around what it would look like after all... The back wall, as well as the branch in the middle, will be a combination of EpiWeb and Styrofoam - Light and inert ;)

Finally, as I already mentionned before, there will be some T5 tubes on the top. I am not yet sure whether 2 tubes would be enough or whether I should install 4 tubes (2 à 4000 and 2 à 6000K and 54 Watts each). What do you think?

Very Cool, I can't wait to see the finished setup!

This is one heck of a setup you have planned. I sure hope you will take pics along the way and share with us.
I'm going to put a small terr. together using an aquarium. It will be strictly an experiment to see if I have any talent for a larger one.
Good luck, I know it will turn out beautifully.

Al

Oooh yes, it's gonna be great.

I want one, for my very own, soooo bad.

I'll sure enjoy seeing what you come up with!

Ramon;

How's the project going? I'm still trying to decide to build or buy.

Cheers.
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for asking!

the project is currently in "stand-by" as I have been too busy in the last weeks. At the very end, I just decided to let the Terrarium be done, as the difference in price self-made Vs vendor-made was between 10 and 15%, and I am confident the result will be "more professional" this way, and I have had more time for other things ;)

The terrarium should be delivered within the next 1 or 2 weeks (I hope, as I am a bit desperate to have it already here :blushing: )

In the mean time, I have started to work on the frame that will hold the whole terrarium, to compile different materials towork in the terrarium deco, and so on...

in the pics, you can see the basis of the rack... there is still some work needed until it is ready to be used ;)

The backwall in the terrarium will have a basis of styrofoam, covered with a 0.5 cm thick PeatWall layer (a mass of peat and a biological binder) which would help to increase the humidity near the wall, and up to the top of the tank. This will then be covered with Epiweb (I like the texture and would provide pants with some room to grow without need to be in direct touch with Peatwall (however, I know people growing orchids directly on Peatwall without any problems...)

The Terrarium will have 6 T5 à 54 Watts each on top. This should be enough light, and if not, either I decide to grow only ferns or add some new tubes :D Furthermore, 4 spray nozzles, and 4 fans inside for lots of air movement (2 pulling air in, and 2 just moving the air around). An external Fan will work blowing fresh air under the lamps for cooling.

I am stil unsure whether I would indeed have the "waterfall" or not.

Once the whole system is running, I plan to leave running for at least 2 or 3 months in order to allow some java moss to colonize the terrarium (moss will be seeded in the system!), and to observe the behaviour of the whole environment: detecting high/low temps, humidity, light... yes, I've gotten a Luxometer :)

2 or 3 months too long? hhhmmm... maybe, but I want to be sure of what I have in the tank, and also this would give me time until spring to decide for plants... then in spring the big shopping tour :biggrin:

Only problem so far.. I don't know what I will do with all the pictures of "Lydia Deitz aka. Winona" (We call her with this nick due to her alikeness with Winona Ryder's character in Beettlejuice) , a very talented young photographer from Mulhouse, France - mainly self portraits... As you can see in the second picture, they will be replaced by teh terrarium, and I need to find another place in the appartment for them...

December, 1st 2008 - an update!
 

Ok, guys, here I am withan update.. I was actually waiting to have it finished before updating this post, but something "funny" happened today and I decided to do it now...

so, picture by picture...

N° 1 I finished building the frame, where the Terrarium will be place
N° 2 & N° 3 The light system has been installed
N° 4 Finally, the terrarium arrived and has been placed on the frame
N° 5 Detail of the drainage hole of the "central water pond" the water will be directed to an external water filter, which will then pump up the water to the "water fall"
N° 6 testing the lights with the terraium (6 x T5 54 Watts; 4x6500K : 2x3000K)
N° 7 to N° 10 I have started to build the back wall and the "ground" with Styropor and gave it the first coating with a special mix for terrarium.

so far so good...

December, 1st 2008 - update - Part 2
 

N°1 the final result of the first coating...

N°2 This coating is not water resistant, so I had to give a second coating with "TerraPur" - a synthetic resin, which has been been made especially for terrarium... it is supposed to be solvents free, and give enought time to work with tit...

N°3 this ***""%%**çç*&&& Product is quite fluid, but after less than 30 minutes it starts to get hot (I was very surprised) and loose viscocity... result, very difficult to work with it... in my desperation to finish before it became hard, I placed my hand on one of the already coated pieces...

N° 4 the big mess... my hand looked like a dark chocolate bar... no matter what I did, this ***ç%%&&%çç%&& product did not dissolved... I had to scratch my hand so storng that I injured my skin (red markings).. and tomorrow morning, I will have to explain the whole Clinical Team and the two vendors bidding for my new trial, why I have brown spots on my hands :rofl:

looking forward to seeing their faces...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Too funny! I wish I could see everyone's faces tomorrow! I wonder how long it will take for it to finally come off? I had a similar problem when I was making walnut wine a few years ago. Green walnuts are used, and I cut them without any gloves. My hands were stained dark brown, and there was no way to get it off.

But at least your terrarium is going to look great! Once all the panels are up, maybe having brown hands will be almost worth it. :coverlaugh:

update... almost ready... ;)
 

Ok, guys, it has taken quite long already, but my job has kept me also very very busy for the last few weeks, and I have had no much time to work in my terrarium...

but I have made some advances, which I would like to share with you all...

first some picture of the construction process... with some details of the back side...

update part 2 - almost ready...
 

and well, a few days laters, after attaching some Epiweb, adjusting the water pump and solving some little problems with water draining through the wrong way... ;)

The setup of plants is not yet final, and I still need to add some fans... but you can get the idea, of how it should look like... place for mounted minis, and also place for some potted plants... the very top seems to be a bit to dry and mayba also too bright, so I do not know yet exactly what kind of chids (or othe plants) should be placed there.... I need to do some more research... ;)

the water in the central pond needs to be further filtered, and the pond also needs to be finalized... I am not sure what I will do with it, but most probably just add some water plants... let's see... maybe also add some small fish (but not very sure of this!) :D

Reminds me a little of the Greentech Units I sold in the 90's - I was their NE USA distributor at the time. My personal chamber resides at the Omaha Zoo...

It looks great! I can imagine it with little fish, and maybe some small ferns next to the pond. Couldn't you add a mist/fog system to raise the humidity in there? Or maybe once you get the fans in there it will stir things up and even the humidity thoughout the terrarium.

I wonder why folks feel the need to have a pond in the "tank"? With misting, the pond is just a space-taker (in my opinion). I like the orchidarium, but question the pond. Just my 2 pence. The background is "killer", but the pond is a distraction, sorry.

indeed, the picture is very 90's... ;)

Hi Camille,

I have a mist system with 6 nozzles installed. It runs 3-4 times a day ( I am still adjusting the time, in order to reach the desired humidity)

Ross... the reason (in my case) is very simple... I was not building a vitrine for orchids, as you have. If I would have planned that, I would have just added a grid to the back of the vitrine, in order to hang the mounted plants, and maybe also some places for potted chids...

As I mentionned earlier in this same thread, the idea was to build a terrarium, which is in the middle of my flat, and should also be decorative.

In other words, I planned a terrarium/vivarium/paludarium where I could also grow some orchids (maybe also some other plants) and according to the mood, maybe also add some animals... The pond in the middle, has nothing to do with increasing the humidity (I've got a misting system for it!), but actually because I love water plants too, and want to have some of them in the vivavrium too. Furthermore, the pond allowes me to have the little waterfalls... again, not in order to increase the humidity, but just because I love the sound of pouring water, which reminds me a lot of my time working in th amazonian... also, since I was a child, I wanted to have an Axolotl, and if I manage to find it here in Switzerland, I would probably add it to the pond in my terrarium...

maybe, an orchids vitrine would have been very purist and would have had a lot of people happy... however, I was building this for me, and I would not have been happy having a plain vitrine with plants in the middle of my appartment... my terrarium should be then covered with moss (the whole back wall is seeded with it!) making a green rain forest spot out of it, standing in the middle of my home...

as you see, my goal with the terrarium was something completely different.... and therefore, the pond in the middle and the "waterfalls" were as important as the orchids that I can grow in the terrarium ;)

Wow! It's looking great so far. Hope you've posted them on Flickr. I'm looking forward to seeing bigger pictures.

If you find the lights are too bright and too hot, you might need to put a couple on a seperate timer for a mid-day burst. You'll get the light benefit without over heating the top.

As a fellow lover of aquatic plants, I vote for Cryptocoryne! Like orchids, you can never have too many Crypts! :biggrin: I can even hook you up with people in Europe to get some rarer species.

Are you using an Eheim to filter/circulate the water? I think I recognize the green tubing.

Cheers.
Jim

what a project!! you have done a marvelous job of creating an ecosystem...it could just about run itself huh? i like the idea or waterfalls and the sound of water moving....it is soothing to the soul...but are you going to include little fish? that would be nice...send more pics as the mosses and ferns develop...ty for posting this!

Indeed, Eheim Prof 2224 :biggrin: actually, Crypts are some of them I like... you can have them half under water half aerial... ;)

Sorry, I think I missed this post after I first responded (there's too much here to read anymore :blushing: )

Short answer: Nope. I have 3 fans - all are about 8CM 12 volt fans ( Coralife Aqualight 3 1/8 Cooling Fan Kit ) Two run totally inside the case 24/7. A third one is mounted on opposite side of case on a hole through the case wall and is on a timer to allow it to run for 3-4 hours at night. This, in effect, exhausts the gases of transpiration, dries out the case a bit to lessen occurence of molds, cools down the inside temps by air exchange with a cooler environment, etc. You don't need all night venting.

Hope I didn't screw up anything by not reading to the end of this thread before posting and by waiting so long, but :scratchhead: How can I read all these threads :hmm :biggrin:

Thanks a lot Ross... you did not screw up anything ;)

Yes, they're great plants. I grow most of mine emersed now although I still aquascape with them mostly.

I had the good fortune of attending the European Cryptocoryne Society meeting last year in Noordwijkerhout, the Netherlands. Had a great time meeting fellow Crypt enthusiasts from Spain, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany, and wow did I have a lot of plants to bring back!

Cheers.
Jim

Yeah, Cryptocorynes are a good idea! I love the ones that have a red leaf underside. I used to have tons in my tank years ago, but they got invasive and I pulled them all up :duh: and planted more. But they never have time to grow, the big catfish destroys everything. My tank will be nearly plantless until the stupid fish dies, in a decade or so. Maybe I'll try Java ferns, apparently that fish doesn't destroy those as much.

Or anubias would look nice, the flowers are excellent! Mine bloom underwater, but sometimes a spike makes it to the surface. They are hardy plants, slow growers though, and love to be mounted on driftwood.

I'm getting really excited about your pond design!!

Why waiting so long? Catfish are delicious deep fried with lemon juice... or as Fish & Chips :biggrin:

Ok, I have continued doing some work inmy Vivarium..

here an update:

Vivarium (updated) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

even the pond looks much better now ;)

Pond on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

;)

that is one fabulous job ramon....it is inspirational...i am going to build a smaller unit, and not so advanced, and i appreciate everything that went into this construction! i loved seeing it as a slideshow! thank you!

once the Vivarium was perfectly running, I satarted havin some problems with water leaking to the side "tanks" (it was a problem with teh styropor pannel, which are not leakproof - I did not expect :(). This was causing too much work, as I had to drain the water every second day.. so, I decided to make some changes...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/...0999e4bcc2.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/...99015bcb5e.jpg

of course I needed to find a new house for the fish and shrimps that were living in the vivarium...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/...4b42e7df_b.jpg