Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

the phal ploidy issue drives me crazy. The puzzle for me is to figure out a rational reason, or 2, why some pods don't develop at all ( maybe easy to explain, the ploidy issue ), why some abort at the 3 month stage and then why some dehisce and contain infertile or no seed.
Something is going wrong with the natural order of things and I don't know if its only genetic. I think things may become clearer the next go-round attempt.
I have read that zygos have similar ploidy problems, maybe I have been lucky to have seedlings already that have been replated, but its a recurring issue anyway.

Didn't you say you are using 3n parents?

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Didn't you say you are using 3n parents?

I haven't used 3n parents exclusively but in this plot its been pointed out that some 3n parent/s do breed. Orchid World is an example.
I do have 3x crosses that are in protocorm stage at the flasking service. And 4 other pods which will be sent in the next month.

What is your experience with ploidy and breeding ?

meant to add that I have also come across issues with Odont Alliance species and hybrids. Zygos - there are supposed to be, but I haven't been impacted, at least not yet. Try and get a named 4N zygo !

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

What is your experience with ploidy and breeding ?

2n exclusively. I moved to TX from HI about 2 years ago and had to liquidate most of my collection, so I'm in a "rebuilding" phase. Why?

[orchidsarefun]

simply because you hadn't said and all contributions/opinions to understanding this topic further are welcome.

[TxRobNLa]

In terms of species conversion, I think it's important to state that most of the species that are being converted are not the naturally occurring versions. In fact they are usually so far hybridized and line breed to the point that they might as well be hybrids. So if your going to make a case that we should not produce tetraploid species for the purposes of conservation, I think you would also have to make a case that we should not be doing selective breeding to improve species from their natural form.

In my personal program, most of the conversions that I'm doing are primary hybrids anyway with the exception of a few coeruleas that are not naturally occurring strains.

As far as breeding with 3n's and aneuploids, I personally don't have the time or resources to waste on trying to get something out of those types of lines. I certainly don't want to risk creating dead ends for myself or anyone else. So I made a conscious choice a long time ago to not do that kind of breeding.

[DavidCampen]

Having been following this thread and seeing the number of people who are willing to go to great effort to advance breeding lines makes me wonder about a tangential topic - testing potential breeding stock and maintaining hygeine to eliminate pathogenic virus. I have started testing the collection that I have acquired over the past 2 years and of the 30 to 40 plants that I have tested so far I have found 6 that were positive for either or both Odontoglossum Ringspot Virus or Cymbidium Mosaic Virus.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by DavidCampen

Having been following this thread and seeing the number of people who are willing to go to great effort to advance breeding lines makes me wonder about a tangential topic - testing potential breeding stock and maintaining hygeine to eliminate pathogenic virus. I have started testing the collection that I have acquired over the past 2 years and of the 30 to 40 plants that I have tested so far I have found 6 that were positive for either or both Odontoglossum Ringspot Virus or Cymbidium Mosaic Virus.

I agree. Wouldn't it be nice if breeders added the test as an additional $ option, or included it in the $ cost ? I had read that a recent Mosaic virus outbreak was traced to an import. Maybe you can start a separate thread because I am interested in how you go about testing.

[DavidCampen]

My virus testing thread is here:
http://www.orchidboard.com/community...munostrip.html

I am using the Agdia Immunostrips:
https://orders.agdia.com/InventoryD....collection=ISK 13301&attribute_Size=25

[orchidsarefun]

Just a point of clarification. Are we saying that anything above 3N originally arose through GM ? I know that 4N and above can arise through a "lightning-strike" event naturally - but to what extent is colchicine being used currently ? Is its use extensive or are breeders predominantly using 4Ns with other 4Ns ?

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Just a point of clarification. Are we saying that anything above 3N originally arose through GM ? I know that 4N and above can arise through a "lightning-strike" event naturally - but to what extent is colchicine being used currently ? Is its use extensive or are breeders predominantly using 4Ns with other 4Ns ?

I think breeders are using colchicine, not just randomly looking for 4N plants. That would be a colossal waste in time and energy.

As for your breeding efforts, I find it interesting that you are against the conversion to 4N, but that your very breeding goal (creating beautiful 3N plants) is inherently dependent upon having one of those parents SOMEWHERE along the line be a 4N. Unless you are only getting your 4N's through "lightening strike" natural occurrence, your breeding efforts are reliant upon someone somewhere converting plants to 4N.

Just food for thought.... if I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

You do make some valid points about species plants being introduced back into the wild "down the line." I don't think we could ever guarantee that some dope won't reintroduce genetically modified plants back into the wild; like you said before, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

You have given me some food for thought. Thanks for sticking to your guns through this thread...I just now understand your complete argument.


My thinking with creating 4N breeders is that I'd be catering to a very specific market. The plants would be specifically for the purpose of people looking to breed 4N crosses, and they would be labelled as such. I'm hoping that anyone serious about orchid breeding or conservation would have the integrity to preserve the labels and distinctions of the plants, but like you said, one can never be certain of anything.

It's certainly a topic that deserves more looking into.

I do think Rob makes a good point about how species plants today are mostly hybrids anyway. If you compare a naturally-occurring Phal amabilis to a line-bred modern one, they look completely different. I'm hoping anyone seriously looking to reintroduce these plants back into the wild would be able to tell the difference between a natural form of the plant and a significantly hybridized one.