Phal column sticking out of forming buds.
 

Anyone has an explanation for this...

https://s33.postimg.cc/rqa4429sf/20180526_093220.jpg

My Phal lindenii has one of its forming buds with the column sticking out... Seems like the column got to full size before the rest of the flower.... All other buds are fine.

https://s33.postimg.cc/6e77kgur3/20180526_110723.jpg

I also had a Phal Shilleriana do the same this winter, but on all its buds.. once fully open they actually looked almost normal...

https://s33.postimg.cc/txecrvzm7/20180124_111231.jpg

Half way opened..

https://s33.postimg.cc/ebx184ikv/20180203_093638.jpg

I can't find a picture of the Schilleriana fully open from close, but it honestly looked (close to) normal.. I had another Shilleriana from the same batch that grows mounted with this one and it was totally fine, all its buds were normal and it bloomed at the same time, so don't think it's growing conditions related, maybe hormonal?

Genetic deformity.

The lindenii I've been growing for years... Bloomed countless times and I've never seen this!

Could SuperThrive cause this? I think it might of gotten some inadvertently when I was spraying adjacent plants that I had just mounted, the timing would of been right around when the lindenii spike started..

For the Schilleriana, now that I think about it, I had just mounted it, and was adding SuperThrive for sure, it had also just started growing a spike..

Seems like the common denominator, or just a coincidence.

I don't know if Superthrive causes genetic mutations. There is no evidence for such a claim.

Your orchids don't need Superthrive to thrive. They can do just fine without it. Any claims that Superthrive is beneficial, is currently anecdotal.

I do know that Phals are cloned like no other orchid on the market, and the cloning process may have created issues with genetic mutations.

Theres plenty of research and information regarding kelp and other hormones and their ability to generate root growth....

I don't use it regularly, but do use it after I mount or repot and have seen the benefits.. I understand that's not necessary to thrive, but a little KLN, superthrive, kelpmax etc. Definitely helps getting root growth started!

These plants are seed grown, if that makes a difference.

As far as I know, Superthrive is not a kelp product. If it is, the manufacturer has never disclosed kelp as being an ingredient for Superthrive. I don't really know all of the ingredients in Superthrive, and therefore, I don't have much to say about it. I can't say a lot of factual things about something for which I don't have the full information on.

I'm aware of the studies on kelp in correlation to inducing root growth in plants that you're talking about, by the way.

Again, to my knowledge, Superthrive is not a kelp product, and if so, the mention of the kelp studies on inducing root growth is not correlated with the use of Superthrive and inducing root growth. If anybody can verify that Superthrive is in fact a kelp product and provide the evidence for it, then the correlation can be made.

From reading the label, I do know that it contains vitamin B1 at 0.09% and 1-Naphthylacetic acid (aka NAA) at 0.048%.

Both ingredients do have the ability to induce root growth. However, I'm not certain if the concentrations are enough to encourage root growth in orchids.

NAA is a plant growth regulator/phytohormone.

Regarding your question as to whether or not the use of Superthrive is the cause of the genetic mutation in your Phal, like I said before, I don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a factor.

I've tried it and I haven't seen much benefit to using it. I feel I can get the same results from not having to use Superthrive.

If you feel it benefits you, I'm not going to dissuade you from using it. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter based on what I've observed. There's a reason why I say that any benefits derived from the use of Superthrive is currently anecdotal in regards to orchids. I was also implying that should you discontinue the use of Superthrive, the plant would be fine, which would in turn save you money in the long run.

Doesn't really change the diagnosis. It's still a genetic mutation.

Genetic mutations can still occur in seed grown populations in plants, it is not unheard of.

To be honest, I don't even know if this gene mutation will continue to express itself or not on subsequent blooming cycles.

Based on the bottle, SuperThrive now includes Kelp (doesn't say how much). I normally used KLN but that isn't available in Canada anymore! I only administer these products after a mount or repot... And still get amazing root growth on plants that don't receive it year after year, so for sure it's not a necessity, I fully agree with you on that!!

I already know these plants have bloomed normally previously. Shouldn't a genetic mutation be permanent? Symptoms could show intermittently, but I mean the mutation is always present? If a product is causing it to show, isn't that more of a temporary hormonal thing!?!


Thanks for the feedback!

Added SuperThrive label for your reference

The primary stimulant in Superthrive is NAA, naphthalene acetic acid, a synthetic auxin. I believe they started adding kelp only a year or two ago.

Yes, overapplication of auxins can lead to flower deformities, but it is reversible, so apparently not genetic changes.

Great, thanks Ray!

The mutation itself can be present in the genes, but the expression of it can change. This is a good example of epigenetics.

If there is no damage or faulty genetic change, epigenetic principles will determine whether certain genes are expressed or silenced.

DNA has to be replicated, and if it is replicated with non-life threatening changes to the nucleotides and doesn't get corrected, those uncorrected pieces of DNA can stay in place on the genes. The change in DNA can be the result of environmental factors such as the use of a certain chemical, for example. Mutated DNA can also be the result of naturally faulty replication.

If in fact the DNA is not damaged or faulty, then we can move on to the topic of epigenetics itself.

Here's when epigenetics comes in...in order to understand this process, you have to understand how DNA structures itself into a chromosome. A strand of DNA wraps itself around a bunch of little cylindrical structures called histones to form what are called nucleosomes. Those histones have histone tails. Those histone tails have epigenetic factors attached to them. Those epigenetic factors can interact with the environment with certain chemicals to express or silence certain genes in the DNA strand. The way that genes are expressed or silenced is through the lengthening or shortening of the portion of DNA in between these nucleosomes. This lengthening of the portion of DNA between the nucleosomes allows other molecules to interact with the DNA in order to enhance the expression of that gene.

A Super Brief and Basic Explanation of Epigenetics for Total Beginners | What is Epigenetics?

epigenetics - Google Search

Epigenetics: The Science of Change

I'm not very well versed in genetics, but I do basically know that this is a case of epigenetics in play.

When you understand how genetics works, it is difficult to say definitively that it is due to the overuse of Superthrive when there is no conclusive evidence to support that claim. Although it is a possibility, it might not be the actual causal factor, particularly in your case.

In regards to the batch of Superthrive you have, the active ingredient would be glacial acetic acid at 2%. Although it states that this ingredient is used as a preservative, I believe that it again serves more as a synthetic auxin in place of NAA at 2%, I think it is enough to stimulate root growth if I'm not mistaken.

What Is Glacial Acetic Acid?

Acetic acid | CH3COOH - PubChem

Since we were talking about NAA briefly, here's a reference to it:

1-Naphthaleneacetic acid | C12H10O2 - PubChem

I wanted to just add in a piece of the puzzle for people to understand about kelp. Kelp is able to induce root growth because of the phytohormones it contains. In case people are wondering what is the big deal with kelp in terms of stimulating root growth, this is why.

I'm sorry if my answer is not very definitive nor satisfactory, but I can't claim I know for sure that something is the cause, when I really don't. For us hobbyists, there's no good way to test it out and reproduce enough good data to support a claim or dismiss a claim in such a case.

If you feel that Superthrive is the cause, just stop using it and see if the plant stops expressing that trait.

I had an issue with deformity on some Catts (segments not separating properly) several years ago and I was using Superthrive about once a month. I have stopped using it (having read of others' experiences) and haven't seen the problem since. There may not have been definitive scientific studies on the issue, but it isn't a product that is demonstrably necessary or useful either. Stop using it, observe what happens next year.

In the case of Superthrive, they have apparently changed the formulation, as it used to have NAA on the label. Vitamin B1 is also a root growth stimulant, but not a particularly good one.

Many moons ago, I did an experiment in which I intentionally overdosed the auxins, and all of my phal blossoms were deformed. The next time they bloomed after I ceased that experiment, they were all fine.

Manu - you can get KelpMax from C & C Orchids in Hamilton ON.

Thanks Ray, I'll definitely get my hands on some, didn't know it was available from Canada..

And thanks for sharing your OD experience with Auxins, I'm pretty convinced this is not a genetic mutation and that my case is related to SuperThrive... I don't believe in coincidences! The lindenii has bloomed at least 5 6 times since I have it and was always normal. Suddenly it's exposed to some SuperThrive and I have a deformed bud. Same for the shilleriana... Maybe if it was just one plant, but two seems like a dead giveaway that this product is the culprit!

Should Superthrive be the culprit, epigenetics is still in play.

It is not "coincidence".

You've got most of the explanation of what happened.

Now you have an idea of the cause and a rough idea of the resulting process that led up to the final result.

Philip, you seem to be very doubtful SuperThrive is the culprit? It seems like anything related to it is anecdotal to you.

Based on Ray's experience where he voluntary administered Auxins and it caused deformed flowers, would you say that this is also a genetic mutation? It has nothing to do with the Auxins? Are you saying all our plants have genetic mutations, but they don't appear unless triggered by Auxins? If that's the case, I'd consider the Auxins (or SuperThrive in my case) to be the root cause...

Ray, thanks for the experiment! My observation with Catts (mini-Catts as I recall) was only anecdotal. Some groups may be more sensitive than others. But it sure looks to me like the evidence is stacking up against Superthrive. Manu, If you stop using it, and next year's flowers are normal, I think that clinches it. Keep us posted!

I'm merely wording things as carefully as I can.

I have no reason to doubt that Superthrive could be the culprit, and I've mentioned it many times.

If fact, didn't I tell you that you didn't need to use it? If I never suspected it as being a culprit, I would've been far more direct. I have no problems doing so.

In lieu of a formal paper that is searchable about the subject matter, and considering how shaky the ingredient labeling can be for Superthrive, and prior to any knowledge of Ray's experiment, healthy skepticism is not out of line.

I never ruled out Superthrive as being a driving force in the floral deformities.

It doesn't rule out what is known about the expression and silencing of genes through the epigenetic process.

I did say whether or not there is a genetic mutation/genetic error, silencing and expression of genes can go through the process of epigenetics.

I have never implied this. In fact, I have implied quite the opposite. Have you read my statement about possible cloning effects? I believe you even quoted me on this. What do you believe is in cloning media? Cytokinins and auxins.

Not in all cases, but you're not far off the mark.

I'd personally avoid overgeneralizing by using the words "all our plants".

Remember I mentioned that the histones have histone tails with epigenetic factors. Those epigenetic factors act as sites for chemical interactions with the external environment. Should there be a strong correlation between the use of Superthrive and the floral deformities, then the external environmental driver would be the synthetic auxins present in Superthrive. In other words, the auxin(s) in Superthrive could be activating those nucleosomes to move further away from each other when they interact with the epigenetic factors on the histone tails. This would allow for certain genes to be expressed more.

Unfortunately, I cannot provide a more detailed explanation that furthers this connection. I don't fully understand the biochemistry of epigenetics well enough, although I've heard the term methylation come up a few times in my biochemistry class when I was on the subject of genetics.

Whether that portion of the genetic material that is being expressed or silenced is genetically damaged or contains a genetic error that was made during the DNA replication process or not, it doesn't matter, one of the ways genes are expressed or silenced is through the epigenetic process.

So, yeah, your reasoning is not terribly off and it does explain why Superthrive is doing what it is doing.

Hence why I say it is possible all the time. Why did you think I kept saying "I wouldn't be surprised if it is the culprit"?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

There is also a reason why I posted the links regarding the chemistry of the auxins. I knew that there was a carboxyl component to both auxins. It could play a part in methylation.

I was hoping a trained chemist could explain this further...

Thanks for the very informative comments Philip.

Let's see if a chemists falls on this and comments further.

From my non-chemist perspective, I'll just blame the SuperThrive lol