Clones: how do you know if it's a good one?
 

Hi guys,
Recently I spent some time on this forum because as long as my collection grows I have more dubts about how to take care of them.
I know that some orchids have some imprefections (on the lip, no perfume, different color from the original i.g.), and I'm just wondering how we can recognize a very good clone.
It happens frequently indeed, that we buy orchids when not in flower. There is something that I can ask to be sure that I'm buying a good one?



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Clones with awards have been recognized by some sort of judging process as superior to others of the same plant. You can read about American Orchid Society awards here:

American Orchid Society Awards

Other orchid societies also give awards.

Commercial growers may select clones they think are better than the rest and give them names. You might buy a division or meristem of a plant with a clonal name after the hybrid name, but no award.

Seedlings are unknowns. Appearance varies, just as it varies from person to person. When you buy a seedling you might get something very special, or something not so good. The farther apart in appearance are the two parents (this is called a 'wide cross'), the more variability there will generally be in the seedlings.

Ok, thank you Estacion Seca.

So, if I buy a non awarded adult plant from a nursery I can't be sure what will come from it.
Plus, if there are some imperfections on the flower or if it should have some perfume while it hasn't the reason is genetically, right? It means that it's not a good clone.

Ciao, se compri una pianta di quella specie (od un ibrido), hai effettivamente quella pianta con quei fiori, ma il fiore non è "eccezionale".
Di solito il premio lo si da al fiore: dimensione generale, pienezza ( immagina di mettere il fiore in un cerchio: ci devono essere pochi spazi vuoti), tessitura, colore etc. (il profumo non credo rientri nei parametri).
Ad esempio una phalaenopsis bellina coerula sarà, come dice il nome, di una tonalità più lavanda rispetto alla bellina normale, ma alcuni cloni hanno una tonalià talmente marcata da rasentare il viola/blu, quindi sono molto ricercati.

Hi, if you buy a plant of that species (or a hybrid), you ave a plant plant with those flower, indeed, but not "excepional" flowers.
Usually but not always, the award is given to the flower and not to the plant: overall size, fullness (imagine to put the flower ina circle: empty spaces must be the less possible), structure/weaving, color etc.
For example, phalaenopsis bellina coerulea will be, as name says, with a lavender color respect to normal bellina; but some clones have a really much more lavender shade, almost violet/blu. Those clones are much wanted than "normal" P. bellina coerulea.

E la durata dei fiori rientra nei parametri? Come si può essere sicuri di avere una pianta che sia il più possibile simile alla pianta che si trova in natura?
What about how long will an orchid be in flower? How can I be sure to buy a plant that is as much as possible similar to the original we can find in nature?


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Actually:

A primary hybrid between two species usually does not have a lot of variation, since it only has contributions from the two. Let's call it AxB.

Next, let us breed that plant with a 3rd species = C. That creates ((AxB) x C). Now the genetic contribution can be high A/low B, low A/high B, etcetera. This variation can be expressed to each part of the plant and flower segment, so there will be much higher variations in the seedlings. And, when we breed two 5th or 10th generation hybrids, there are so many species in the background, that the potential variation is even greater.

This simple explanation does not cover dominant and recessive traits, which allows the breeder to make some predictions about the expected results.

Now let's consider an unbloomed meristem ('clone'), there is still a little uncertainty, as random mutations can occur. These can be in plant size, flower quality or color; one option I often look for, is tetraploid plants, which can appear in regular diploid meristems. For an example, see thread on Cattleya Caudebec.

Most judging systems look only at the flower quality, size and number of flowers on the spike, as compared to other similar breeding. In the AOS, there is also judging of large well flowered plants (socalled 'specimen' sized plants). Those awards are to the grower for that specific blooming. However, if you later buy a division of that plant, you are assured that the plant can be grown to such size - given the right conditions.

Finally, a clonal name attached by a grower it usually an indication that it is a plant he/she would like to hold on to for some reason. It could be that the flower is very good. It could also be that the flower is not pretty, but very large, so it is a valuable breeding plant (to increase flower size in the next generation).

An example of this in Paphiopedilum, is Hellas 'Westonbirt'. This honey colored flower has good shape, but the color is not dominant. Thus, it is a great breeder to add shape in breeding in almost any color scheme.

Thank you Kim for your clear explanation.

oh Kim, it's a perfect explanation! :bowing
thank you so much!

If you are looking for fragrance, ask if that particular clone is fragrant before you buy it. Fragrance isn't part of the awarding process and is sometimes lost during the hybridizing process.

You're right Leafmite. I think I will.


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One thing I have not seen mentioned (or I just missed it...) is culture.

How you grow a plant will have a significant effect on how it grows and blooms, so if you purchase a clone, and when it blooms, it's not identical to the awarded one, that may very well be on you, not a mutation in the cloning process.

First-generation clones - those derived from plants' meristematic tissue - are usually quite reliable in their "trueness" to the mother plant. The number of mutations increases as that tissue is re-, re-, replicated more and more.

What I don't know, and have never seen data to support one way or another, is if the rate of mutation increases, or if the sheer number becomes so great that more are seen.

Wow, a clone is a clone.

Clone:a) A cell, cell product, or organism that is genetically identical to the unit or individual from which it was derived.
b) A population of identical units, cells, or individuals that derive from the same ancestral line.
Bad cultivation will produce a different size, shape of flower and plant.
A clone without an award is nothing, otherwise its breeder would have taken it to a judging. An awarded plant to a breeder equals prestige and money. As an example look at the history of Orchidglade in this field.
Until today an Orchidglade awarded orchid commands a lot of money and they are magnificent.
If you are not able to see the plant cloned you may end up with surprises 2 - 3 years later when it blooms. Remember that a flower can be made to appear bigger with a close-up pic. The colors can be enhanced with photoshop and you will not be aware of it until a year or more later when it blooms. I have been collecting coins, stamps and orchids for several years and my experience has been that most dealers behave badly. It is always buyer beware. Do not let the bad experiences push you out of the hobby but turn them into knowledge. Good luck and enjoy your orchids.

---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------

That is a very interesting question.
I propose that as the number of re-cloning increase there will be some increase in the number of variables for a mutation from the original. All living things are constantly replacing dead cells and in that process lie the errors in the DNA. I just finished reading a paper from Taiwan university in which they assert that the older the matrix the higher the probability for a mutation in cloning. I could not find any work done to disprove or assert this logical conclusion or how many re-cloning away from the matrix will result in a visual mutation. I like you. You put my brain cells to work.