Hybrids Question...
 

Although I've been concentrating on collecting species, I do have a number of hybrids in the bunch.
Could somebody please explain the breakdown of hybrids for me? I've seen the phrases Primary hybrid, Secondary hybrid and there's one other that I can't remember...what are the characteristics of plants in any of these categories?
Thanks...

You know who's good at that stuff? Piper / Julie from RVO... let me see if I can find the explination she wrote for RVO once....




Here..... it's a lot of techie stuff for me, but maybe this will help??

http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchid...ghlight=naming

A primary hybrid is one that is made between two species. I don't know exactly how you would define 'secondary hybrid'. I'm sure people use the term, but I'm also sure it would be a bit slippery to define.

In my mind, it is either a primary hybrid, or complex. Complex is anything that has more than three species in the background.

Terms with which I am familiar are natural, primary, near-primary and complex hybrids. A natural hybrid is a cross of the same genus and species; primary hybrid is a cross of two different species within the same genus; near-primary is a cross between a primary hybrid and another species in the same genus; complex is a cross of two hybrids. We use these definitions in show judging classification lists with success. Things get crazy when we get into intergeneric hybrids.

Hi,
How is that even a Hybrid?????? I don't understand. If you cross two plants of the same genus and species, then wouldn't you get just another of the same plant. Like to Humans making a baby human. Not a Hybrid.:scratchhead:

A natural hybrid is a naturally occuring plant derived from two separate species. Paph. X Fanaticum, for example. The X indicates it is a natural hybrid (of... malipoense and micranthum, I believe). Without the X, we assume a man made hybrid, so Paph. Fanaticum is the man made version of something that you could find in the jungle.

Natural hybrids were often given latinized names. In fact, many were described as valid species, and only later moved to be natural hybrids. For purposes of AOS judging, natural hybrids are awarded as species (ie, you can get a CHM or CBR on them), if I recall correctly.

It doesn't have to be the same genus, actually. I'm sure there are some natural hybrids between laelia and cattleya, for example.

Oh, now I understand. Thanks Rob.

When discussing Natural Hybrids, we treat them similar to species, as they occur in nature. So the binary name Paph. x Fanaticum is actually incorrect, as it would confuse one in thinking it is a cross with this hybrid, or it is just a hybrid (man-made). So the proper displayal is Paph. x fanaticum. The lowercase 'F' shows that this is similar to a specific epithet, but the 'x' shows that it is a hybrid, so it is a Natural Hybrid. Natural Hybrids are given latin names.

There are also naturally occuring Intrageneric Natural Hybrids, which are two different genera that are crossed by natural means. For the most part, most Natural Hybrids are Intergeneric, which is contained within a single genus.

As for Primary Hybrid, this is a cross of two species, regardless of genus. A Complex Hybrid is three or more species crossed together, regardless of genera. These are the most common hybrid terms used, besides the use of Generations.

Mahon, I'm guessing that it was just a typo, but Intergeneric refers to a hybrid between two different genera. Intrageneric would be within a single genus.

I have a further question/comment, as well: More than once it was stated that a complex hybrid is any that contains more than two species, and I think that definition isn't precise enough. What about (A x B) x A? Only two species, but not really a primary hybrid. Or better yet [(A x B) x A] x [(A x B) x B] - two species, but fairly complex.

Aren't we more correct to say that a primary is a hybrid in which two species were the parents?

I mistyped on the Paph. x fanaticum, good catch, Mahon.

Ray... I totally agree. (A x B) x A is not a primary hybrid. And my definition, therefore, sucked. I think your definition is better. Some examples would include:

Paph. Maudiae - callosum x lawrenceanum
Paph. Alma Gavaert - (callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum
Paph. Holdenii - (callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum

Now, you can't get any more complicated than the RHS naming system, so the last two are complex hybrids :) , even though they are derived from only two species.

Cool discussion we've got going here... :biggrin:

Ray, yes you were right, I don't know what I am thinking sometimes... Intrageneric is within the same genus, Intergeneric is the opposite... good clarification about the definition of Primary Hybrid, I never thought how generic the definition is, and you have a good set up for the hybrid. =)

-Pat

I'm just going to recap, because a lot of things have been missaid and then restated. While the information ends up being correct, the flow is confusing as hell!

Genus names are always capitalized, and species names are always small caps. The only exception is a natural hybrid, which is a cross between two species that occurs in nature. That's the only hybrid to get a small cap in its name. It's preceded by a small 'x' to show that it's a naturally occuring hybrid. For example: Cattleya x joaquiniana, which is the naturally occuring cross between C. bicolor x C. walkeriana.

Primary hybrids are crosses between two species. But since they don't occur in nature, their names are capitalized. They're almost always within a single genus. I can't think of an example between genera, but I'm sure there is one.

Everything else is a complex hybrid. It is common to see the term near-primary hybrid. While that doesn't have a specific meaning, it's generally used to describe a primary hyrid crossed with a species. The species may also be a parent of the primary hybrid, but not necessarily. Sort of like a first cousin once removed.

If two species are crossed, the name of the species doesn't change, but the cultivar or clonal name does. That would be the name that follows in single quotes. Such as Paph. rothschildianum 'Rex'.

When crossing the same species this is true for hybrids as well, but I'll use species to describe it, to keep things simple
you can create seedlings that are either sibs or selfs. A self crossing means the pollen comes from the plant on which you set the pod. For example, Paph. sanderianum 'Twister' x self.

Here's an important point with self and sib crosses: let's say we want to cross our beloved Phal. equestris 'Candor Violette' FCC/AOS. It's won the American Orchid Society's highest honor the FCC award, and we want seedlings from the little darling. So we make a Phal equestris 'Candor Violette' x self cross. While the seedlings retain the cultivar name of the parent, 'Candor Violette', they do not retain the FCC/AOS designation. Only clones or divisions of the awarded plant retain the award. They must be genetically identical, and seedlings are close, but not exactly the same. This mistake is often seen on tags of self crosses of awarded plants.

A sib crossing means we're working with the seedlings from an earlier cross. P1 is used to represent the original parents. Let's say we've already crossed our prized Phrag. besseae 'Eric the Red' FCC/AOS x 'Fox Valley' FCC/AOS. They would be known as the P1 generation, or parents. The seedlings we get from that cross are known as the F1 progeny or offspring. The first generation of seedlings. From these F1 seedlings, we may wish to further breed for specific traits. If we cross two of our F1 seedlings, we've made a sib cross. That is, between siblings from our original P1 cross.

The cross would be labled: Phrag. besseae ('Eric the Red' x 'Fox Valley') x sib. Note how the FCC/AOS labels drop off for the sib cross, just as they did in the F1 self cross above. The seedlings from our sib cross would be referred to as to as the F2 generation. Further sib crosses from among our F2 plants would give us an F3 generation, etc.

The F1 and F2 designations are often used by top breeders. They'll often represent the intermediate steps of a mult-generational breeding program.

There's more than anyone asked for! Ok, the end!

Julie

Thanks Julie!!!!
Great recap.

Great job, Julie :biggrin:
thank you...and thanks to everybody for their input.
I kept thinking...:I'm smart, I can figure this out"...only to realize...NO!
Thanks again :)

Thanks, Susanne. Don't worry - it's not intuitive! You only learn by asking.

For that matter, I have a couple of questions. What are the rules for naming a hybrid cross (aka a grex) and cultivars?

My understanding is that if a cross hasn't yet been registered, and you have a flowering plant of that cross, then you can name it. If you made the cross yourself, it's pretty straight forward. If you didn't, you have to show an effort to have located the original hybridizer to offer him or her the chance to name it. Is that correct?

I'm curious, because I just bought a Dend primary hybrid that's just bloomed and is an unnamed cross, and I know the seller didn't make it. I can only imagine the name has been applied for and the paperwork is in process over at the RHS.

As for cultivars, I believe you can give a cultivar name to an awarded plant. But non-awarded plants are also named for commercial purposes. What are the rules for naming a cultivar?

Julie

I agree with the vast majority of what you have summed up, but the last part about sib crosses has me a bit perplexed. When you have a sib cross of phrag bessae "Eric the Red" FCC/AOS x "Fox Valley" FCC/AOS, that is exactly what should be on the tag. Both of the parents have awards, and this helps to further identify the particular clone as highly worthy.
Virtually all nurseries will include award information on their tags.
All this does is tell you that both parents are highly awarded and that the cross has high potential.
The exhibitor can name any plant whether awarded or not. If it is awarded, then it has to have a clonal name.

Great information from everyone.
I agree there is much information about an orchid cross that should be included on the tag; sadly, it is often missing or incorrect. Often this can be attributed to poor penmanship or negligence of proper spelling or record keeping.

I have to make some further clarifications to some of your restatements, Julie:
The specific name is lower case, not small caps.

Primary hybrids sure DO occur in nature! You used one as your example from the papragraph above.

The seedlings absolutely do not retain the cultivar name! While one may label them as "Phal equestris 'Candor Violette' FCC/AOS x self", each seedling is actually a new cultivar, which may be given it's own name.

I have a "naming conventions" page on my website - click here

By the way Rob, how does Paph. Almenii strike you? It's Holdenii x Alma Gavaert - still only two species:

[(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum] x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum]

Oh wait! It gets better! Almenii x Holdenii = Eric Meng
{[(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum] x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum]} x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum]

LOL - that would be callosum^5 x lawrenceanum^4!

Thanks for the clarifications. Such precision is involved in orchid nomenclature, we can't even sum up without correcting ourselves upteen times!

I think it's worth mentioning that the tag can tell you two things. Sometimes it will only tell you one of the two. It can tell who the parents were, and they would retain their cultivar name and any awards; and it can tell you the specific name of the plant in your hands, and that would not retain the parents' cultivar names and awards.

I think that's where the confusion came in.

Julie

You're right, there is a LOT of information about a species or hybrid that should be on a tag, but tags fade, break and get lost. When you acquire a new plant that has a tag, record its name in whatever type inventory you use and make a new label right away. If the original label is broken or illegible, most orchid databases, including RHS (free), have a string search feature that can help fill in the missing info.

Hi Julie

but that is only the beginning! If you write the ancestors of a hybrid, say Dendobium Berry, like this:

Den. Berry = Den. kingianum X
Den. Mini Pearl = Den. canaliculatum X
Den. bigibbum

it is still easy. Anyway, modern Phal hybs are a BIT more difficult. I tried it for my Phal. I-Hsin Black Panther on a spread sheet... the list is 1758 entries long and goes into the 16th hybrid generation.

Good to know the family tree but the label only needs to show the plant name (species or registered name if a hybrid), clonal epithet, and AOS or other award. If plant is a hybrid, its nice to see the parent names, especially if it's a new or otherwise unfamiliar hybrid.

I'd change that a little bit. Even if it is a named cross, I like to know the parents. Certain parents are better than others, and if for some reason I wanted to replicate the cross, or just buy more, I need to know the exact parents.

So, delenatii x rothschildianum isn't that useful (I'd just write that Delrosi and be done with it), since no clonal information on the parents. But delenatii 'Pink Puff' x roth 'Rex' is different than delenatii 'Pink Puff' x roth 'Sam's Best', and I'd keep that information on the tag along with the name of the hybrid. Lord knows I won't remember which is which otherwise, 15 years from now when those might bloom.

I too like to know the names of a plant's parents in as much detail as possible and use the AOS' Judging Entry Form as a guide for info that should be included on a tag: name of plant, clonal name, parentage and award. A database traces back to grandparents, etc. but this info is not on the tag. A regular check of RHS, e-aosawards or other resources keeps me current with the most up-to-date name/registration/award info.

I usually will create a tag with the original parents, then add a tag when the grex is named. If you need to know the background go to Sander's or programs like Orchidwiz, Wildcatt or the AOS award program. They can be quite useful for breeding or just to satisfy your curiosity. In my opinion Orchidwiz is the best one to buy, with a lot of useful information, awards, culture, pictures, etc. Wildcatt is an earlier version that has been quite useful for genealogy and award information. The AOS e-award program is a bit difficult to navigate, but has the actual award photos for many plants (several thousand), so it is useful also.

I know a number of people who've purchased Orchidwiz and they all rave about it.