Death of unopened flowers in cattleyas
 

Hello everyone:
I need advice on the flowering of cattleyas. In this summer season my plants are aborting the flowers and I don't know what it can be; of four I achieve one, of two one, and it is happening to me with almost all those that are opening pods. I put pictures of how the unopened flower begins to die. This has me very disappointed, I have read a lot and I can't find the cause, maybe someone has gone through the same thing and can clarify what is happening. I have been cultivating cattleyas for more than five years and it is the first time I have seen this. I appreciate the help you can give me. Greetings.

Here the photos I forgot to put

I imagine this probably isn’t the case for you, but if one of my Phalaenopsis or Oncidium types with bad root health decides to bloom anyway, this happens. But, it’s usually all he flowers that fail. How are the roots on your plants?

My plants are fine, those that are in the flowering season are those that are presenting this problem, so I could find it may be an excess of water, they are outside and although I protect them, they may have received a lot of rain.

I had this issue with one of my Cattleya that was apparently caused by too much light. Moving the plant to a slightly dimmer location gave me a successful bloom.

That could be because they receive a lot of light and with the yellow ones this has not happened to me, now two are opening the pod, one is yellow and the other orange, as these require a lot of light, I will not move to see what It happens, I know that the red and pink ones that have opened have done it wrong. If this is the cause, I could solve it, thank you very much for your help.

And how is the color pattern of the blooms? Does it looks like "damaged", with color breaks and streaks?
Something like the example bellow:

http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchid...ds-virus-1.jpg

Ouch... that color break sure looks like virus. A lot of the flaws that people see on leaves are very likely to be other things like bacterial or fungal infection. But color break like this in a Cattleya flower has "virus" written all over it. Isolate it , and test it - if positive, throw away. The blasting buds in the original post are likely to have other causes, probably environmental. But this flower looks bad.

Roberta, that's not a plant of mine. Just an example taken from the web so that Merita understands what I'm trying to say.:)

Oh, I am very glad! That one looks awful.

The color of the flower is red, she has not yet opened to see how it came to be, it is the first time that it blooms, it is called Potinara Walnita char ‘Big red’ I bought it from Better Gro very tiny almost two years ago.

Even if they won't open, you can open them yourself and see how they look.

The most worrying thing is that there are already several plants that have done this to me in these months. The last one was RLC. Sharon King, which I bought a few months ago in Akatsuka, took out two sheats with four flowers and achieved only one, the others died like that, and an almost premature achievement opened, I put photos.

The first photo, with two flowers, I can't see that clearly but from what I CAN see the flowers look OK. I would be very concerned about the other one. I do suggest that you either send to a lab or buy some Agdia test strips. Isolate until you can test it. If it is a recent purchase and tests positive for virus, the vendor should give a refund. If you have had it for awhile, recourse would not be reasonable because it could have come that way or gotten contaminated in your possession. If it tests negative, then it is probably insect or other environmental damage and the next bloom very likely OK.

I do not understand, I do not know what you mean, there are no open flowers of the first of the first case.

I am looking at the two photos in your post just above my last post. The photo on the left has two different plants. It's small so hard to see the flowers in detail. The one on the right (beautiful lip!) with hand behind it, has markings on the petals and sepals that might be color break

No, the first photo contains two flowers of the same pod, one opened normally and the other deformed; The second photo is the flower that opened normally after the first day and filled with water because it had just rained when I took the photo.

In the second photo, then, the markings may have been due to the rain. I hope that the next blooming shows that this was only physical damage.

Yes, all you see is the water on the flower, I don't know why the picture is so small in the forum. Greetings and thanks for your help

I'm confused. You're telling us that the two flowers are from the same plant? Are you sure it's not two plants in the same pot? Because each flower looks normal if we were discussing different plants. If they are from a single plant, surely not from the same pseudobulb. Label the pseudobulbs and see if it happens again next blooming season. Keep a record, take close-up photos of flower details and the plant.

And what do you mean by "pod"? Pot? Pseudobulb? Sheath? "Pod" usually refers to a seed capsule.

I think we are discussing two different problems. The first being flowers aborting and the second is different looking blooms on what seems to be one plant (the normal flower looks different between the two pics, too.) Are the pictures on the first page of the same flowers as on the second page?

Back to the original problem. After the buds drop, have you looked for pests?

The theme is the death of flowers when they are going to open. The first photos I put are those that have not yet opened and already a flower is dying. The second photos are from another plant that did the same to me but she took out a sheat with a normal flower and the other one deformed, the second sheat aborted the two flowers. The color change is because it opens orange until it reaches true red about two days later, I took a picture of the flower after it rains so it looks full of water. I keep a record of all cattleyas, with photos of the flowering and dates. In this year I have had less flowers in some plants and an advance in flowering time. On insects I can only fumigate because they are outside, and yes, I have seen thrips but the insecticide I have found is in dust and does not say that any solution can be made, if you can guide me with this, I would appreciate it. Greetings.

Do your orchids grow outdoors? And did you get much rain recently? If so ----- then could maybe consider whether or not water got caught up either inside any sheaths, or in the gap between pseudobulb and the pseudo-bulb's outer covering (- the covering that usually splits and peels away naturally). Sometimes, if water gets trapped in some places, it might lead to some issues. This might not be what's happening. But could take a look into it.

Merita ----- for all photos - see if you can resize them to 1024 pixels across in the horizontal direction before uploading ----- just to make the photos big enough for details to be clearly seen.

Yes, they have received enough rain, sometimes I can protect them and sometimes not. The cover of the pseudobulbs, I open it when it is filled with water so that it does not accumulate. Sometimes a flower dies and the other opens in the same sheat. Perhaps there are several factors that are affecting flowering and I have seen thrips, ants and some mites. There are three plants that have sheats opening, I will put them here to see how they are. Greetings.

I return to the issue to put the flowers they are opening, they all have as bites of insects and where the sepalous do not get to cover the whole flower the problem becomes greater. I have seen yellow and black mosquitoes, thrips, and other rare insects, not in quantities but since they are outside, they are exposed to everything. The Orthene here is a powder for fire ants and does not accept water to dissolve. For Amazon they are selling one at 97% that I don't know if it could be used for orchids. If someone could put a picture of another insecticide, I would appreciate it. Thank you all.

Merita --- have you got carbaryl and/or bifenthrin? These don't have staying-power, but applying them during times that count can definitely help ward-off the biting animals. Can keep them at bay. You can test them on a single orchid flower to begin with. These products won't harm the orchid when sprayed at the recommended dosage/concentration.

I don't have those products but I can buy them, I was looking for the Orthene because it was the one they recommended. I also thought of the malathion. I fear insecticides because once I used one that was for roses and killed many phals, that's why I ask now. I'm going to Home Depot to see if they have those. Thank you very much for your help.

I have used Orthene and had no bad effects. Bayer Advanced 3-in-1 was great, but the formulation is no longer for sale, They have another formulation that they're now selling in place of it... I can't vouch for the efficacy because I haven't tried it (when imidacloprid started showing up on "banned" lists I laid in a rather large supply of the original formulation so I'm set for several years, I use the stuff very sparingly and surgically for specific problems, not as a preventative) But the new Bayer product is worth a try as a broad-spectrum pesticide that doesn't seem to harm flowers. (If you get that, let us know whether it does the harm to bugs that it is supposed to)

I looked around, I think the new product is called BioAdvanced 3-in-1 Insect Disease and Mite Control Concentrate, there's also a dilute "ready to use" form (not cost-effective if you're going to use much of it but might be OK if you just want to try it)

Merita --- I forgot to mention. For spraying - put on the correct kind of filter mask (mouth mask). Some products are said to be not-harmful to humans, but always a good idea to use breathing protection anyway in my opinion.

If you do spray flowers, I think it's best to use the finest of fine misting sprays ----- like the ones that some hair-dressers use. These aren't the regular spray bottle types. Instead, they have some other kind of nozzle that ejects super fine mist. This can help avoid big water droplets from forming on a flower, which could in turn lead to unwanted marking etc. I know that in nature water gets on flowers, and some people even put water on their flowers to get some more features into their orchid flower photo. But I think that too much water on orchid flowers is probably not great for prolonging the flower life.

I used to buy Bayer products, with one of them I made a killing of Phals because he fell into the roots, I still have them stored in the garage. Here I put these to see if any is the one you say, I remember there were several. If it's none of these, could you send me a picture of yours and the Orthene that you use? Greetings and thanks for your help.

Do not worry about fumigation, I am very related to the products, my profession is Chemistry and I know what pesticides are and the risk of using them, I take the necessary measures and try to avoid them until cases like this. As the flowering plants at this time are only 4, I will separate them to fumigate the others that have sheats for the fall. I still haven't found the app to reduce the photos. Which one would you recommend? Greetings.

I'm not sure who the "he" is that fell into the roots. But I use the one on the left - 3-in-1 Insect Disease and Mite Control For Use on Trees, Shrubs, Roses and Flowers. It's a liquid concentrate. I use about 2.5 - 3 tablespoons per half gallon (5-6 tablespoons per gallon). I also add a few drops of dishwashing liquid to help emulsify the concentrate, and also to facilitate its spread on the plant. I have sprayed roots, flowers, leaves, and medium and have never had a problem. If the concentrate fell into a pot, of course it could be disastrous. But at this dilution I have found it to be quite benign.

The granules designed for roses I think also contain fertilizer, and the product is scattered over roots - that would be too strong for orchids. Save that for roses or other plants that grow in dirt.

The Orthene product that I use is Orthenex, which is an oily liquid conceentrate. (I think I also have another similar green plastic bottle just labeled "Orthene" in the garage) The stuff really stinks...and I think the Bayer's kills more kinds of pests. I only use the Orthenex as a "back up" or "second product" for an infestation that needs extra "persuasion" since it does smell so bad. This is the stuff :

Thanks Roberta, I'm going to start with the one you tell me; the other is a liquid concentrate too but it contains fertilizers, I have the granules that you say for roses and many more of this brand, before I bought it. Greetings.

Imidacloprid is toxic for bees, that is why it was banned... but careful focused spraying on only the orchid plants should minimize the exposure of bees, who don't particularly visit the orchids. Keep it away from flowering plants that the bees favor (but that's not where the pests you are concerned about are) Its toxicity for humans is quite low - wash hands after use and stand upwind when you're spraying so you don't spray yourself, of course, but I don't think you need to do this in a hazmat suit.

I always wear gloves and mask, more because I'm not young and I have to take care of myself. I have thrown the imidacloprid even in the grass, when it came granulated, I know that it is a neonicotinoid of moderate toxicity and probable carcinogen but it seems to me that besides the bees, they fear the contamination of the underground waters, I have never seen a bee in my garden but thousands of wasps. The companies that maintain the yards use it to eradicate ants and at higher concentrations, usually all insecticides and more fungicides, which really work, have their pros and cons.

Neonicontinids are no longer available for home use, at least in California - I am not sure of the limitations for commercial use. So their indiscriminate use is definitely bad for the environment. It's a balancing act between human immediate needs - and wants - and what is good for the world. Perhaps I have a smaller pest problem than you do, but I do try to use as little as possible in the way of pesticides. And my yard has bees buzzing around the (non-orchid) flowers, and lots of butterflies. I am mostly willing to co-exist with the bugs, as long as they stay away from my orchids.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

The thought occurs to me... if you and the landscape staff in your neighborhood are already using massive amounts of imidacloprid on lawns and landscape plants, you may have another problem with those thrips and other bugs destroying your flowers. Resistance... The thrips, etc. that are around your orchids are the ones that survived the pesticide treatment. So the Bayer's may do little or nothing to help you. You may have a MUCH bigger problem. You probably want to look at something that uses a completely different mechanism than the neonicotinids. Perhaps one of the "juvenile hormone" products that prevent the larvae from developing into adults. Enstar AQ Insect Growth Regulator comes to mind. REALLY expensive. Do your research on how to handle and its efficacy if you plan to go that route. I don't know how effective it is for thrips. In an enclosed area such as a greenhouse, there are also beneficial insects, nematodes, etc. In the open air, not very effective, especially in an area where there is heavy pesticide use.

I had used the Bayer imidacloprid products for years for scale and a couple of years ago I discovered that is wasn't working anymore. I had developed a resistance issue. The scale seemed to be laughing at my spraying. I went looking for something else and heard good stuff about AzaMax so I opted to try that and it has worked great.

For scale, I do 3 sprays at 7-10 day intervals and it knocks out the scale. This past winter was the first in a few years where I wasn't dealing w/scale all winter. As soon as the weather warmed and I was able to open windows, I did start finding some scale but the winter was worry free.

Reading the label...it's also good for thrips and many, many other pests, including spider mites.

This is not a systemic, it works on contact and via ingestion by the pests. It is a growth regulator and it's active ingredient is Azadirachtin...which comes from the Neem seed. I have only had issues w/scale so I can't speak from experience to it's control on other pests but if it works as well w/those as it does w/scale...it will be great.

As a side note...like Neem, it stinks like crazy but the smell dissipates mostly after it dries. Use gloves and protection when using...like you would w/any other insecticide. It may be neem based but it's still an insecticide so it can harm bees if you actually hit the bees so only use it early in the morning or late in the evening when they aren't as active. Personally, I only do sprays very early in the morning.

I get it on Amazon and most Hydroponics stores also carry it.

I have not sprayed this year, so far that the thrips and other insects are destroying the orchids, I had not had major problems, I have spent years without doing so and they had never attacked me like that. I hope to solve with one or another insecticide, what I have is to act fast. Thank you all for the help, I will keep you informed if this continues.

I return with the thrips issue, I have sprayed twice with Bayer 3 in 1 without any results, Imidacloprid is not working. all the pods that were outside are turning yellow and black and the plants are taking out new growths; The flowers they have opened are still in trouble. I want to ask if the Orthene that Lowe’s sells for fire ants could be used in solution to spray the orchids. This is the last plant that sheath opened, the center flower is damaged, the sepals did not cover it completely. RLC Nakornchaisri Delight # 2.

Because of the heavy use of imidacloprid pesticides in your landscaping, I am not surprised that it is ineffective. The pests in your neighborhood are completely resistant to it. You will have to use treatments that have a different mechanism for attacking thrips, etc. Probably more than one type, alternating over a period of weeks.

No, the imidacloprid has not been used for this place for years and I only have one house nearby. Last night I was reading on the internet an article about thrips and it says that it has already been shown that this insecticide is not very active for thrips, it also said that the use of Orthene, Malathion and others, in the end, increased mites in plants, but They did not give an insecticide that could be used. This is why I am asking about the Orthene for fire ants.