loose and wiggley rothschild

[mrphilips]

thanks for your thoughtful reply!

a few return comments:
slow growth etc - yes, he gets about a leaf a year and has done so for the last five or six years (as long as i've had him)... loses a leaf about every two years but now all are wilty, two are yellowing, and one already died a few months back

good thoughts on the light - i'll keep him where he is then as i have a cattleya that flowers for me every year.

i should mention that i did turn him a month or two ago as he was getting "one-sided" with the heliotroping - maybe this was too much stress for him? i will turn him back as he was and see if he improves!

as for the pot - the picture could be deceiving. it's a mug with gravel at the bottom, but he's in a fairly small orchid pot underneath. i have included another picture of the actual orchid pot he is in - still think it's too big? i could try for a smaller pot but this is a 2.25" pot, which seemed plenty small when i first went down to it

i will slow down on the watering. i water from a mountain stream i have in my backyard. the soil around here is quite alkaline. i fertilize him once every four times i water him, and i use the before mentioned "paph magic" (limestone, oyster shell, other things) four times a year, which i feel i thought-out and proactive.

again, thanks for your thoughts - keep em coming if you have more, i want him to live until he blooms!

[mrphilips]

i feel i have made a bit of progress with putting him back in the light with the leaves oriented the way they had been - quite heliotroped, but it seemed to help.

i am curious about the pot size though... should i down grade?

or put it in a different decorative pot with more ventilation?

[bil]

If it isn't firm in there then the question is, why not?

Mine has been in this pot for a year now, and it is well bedded in. My paph/phrag pots are 8 inches in diameter, and have about 3 inches only of medium in there.

I put 3 balls of sphag about 2 inches in diam equidistant around the pot rim, pop the plant in the middle and then fill up with sieved fine bark.

I'm told they grow pretty big. I am not a fan of cramped roots.

[mrphilips]

thanks for your reply, however now i'm more confused.

i've always been told that over-potting is largely a problem, so i downgraded to what you see in the picture.

the last response before yours suggested again that i was maybe overpotted, but you're suggesting a much larger pot?

[PaphLover]

Hi mrphilips,

bil uses wide, but shallow pots. It's his personal system of growing that works extremely well for him and his growing conditions.

All orchid growers have their own way of doing things and what works for them. You can't emulate them all.

I don't think your pot is too large. Was the last time you repotted in 2014? It may be time to do so again. Bark media can degrade and go 'sour'. It can hold too much moisture and not let the roots 'breathe'.

How do the roots look? Are they healthy? Plump...Furry, light brown?

When my plants grow a leaf and lose a leaf, or the leaves are floppy and droopy, it often means the root system isn't strong and healthy enough to support more leaves, so it has to let one go.

Another issue might be fertilizer. I tend to use the 'weakly weekly' method rather than only once a month. You might try that and see if there's any improvement.

Hope this helps, and that more expert roth growers will chime in!

Here's a page I found on multi-paphs' culture that may be interesting:
Paph Culture

[bil]

Originally Posted by mrphilips

thanks for your reply, however now i'm more confused.

i've always been told that over-potting is largely a problem, so i downgraded to what you see in the picture.

the last response before yours suggested again that i was maybe overpotted, but you're suggesting a much larger pot?

Well, all my orchids that are in pots are all in pots way bigger than people recommend. They do just great.

The term overpotting is a completely bogus term, and very misleading. You will note that I only have 3 inches deep of media in those wide pots.

What counts is how far the oxygen/air can penetrate into the medium. The diameter of the pot is completely irrelevant, it's the depth that matters. A 6 inch diameter pot which is 6 inches deep is worse than a foot diameter pot that is 3 inches deep.

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by PaphLover

Hi mrphilips,

bil uses wide, but shallow pots. It's his personal system of growing that works extremely well for him and his growing conditions.

All orchid growers have their own way of doing things and what works for them. You can't emulate them all.

I don't think your pot is too large. Was the last time you repotted in 2014? It may be time to do so again. Bark media can degrade and go 'sour'. It can hold too much moisture and not let the roots 'breathe'.

How do the roots look? Are they healthy? Plump...Furry, light brown?

When my plants grow a leaf and lose a leaf, or the leaves are floppy and droopy, it often means the root system isn't strong and healthy enough to support more leaves, so it has to let one go.

Another issue might be fertilizer. I tend to use the 'weakly weekly' method rather than only once a month. You might try that and see if there's any improvement.

Hope this helps, and that more expert roth growers will chime in!

Not meaning to be rude, but physics is physics. What is VITAL for all orchids is that air penetrates into the medium well enough so that the roots don't suffocate.

It isn't to do with conditions where I am, or how I do it.

The simple rule is that if your medium isn't well enough aerated, you orchid will lose it's roots to rot.

That's down to depth and density of medium. The denser the medium, and the harder it is to get air thru, the shallower it will have to be.

That's why if you use coarse bark, sieved for phals, you can put them in a pot a metre in diam and a metre deep and not be overpotting them.

[PaphLover]

bil,

Hmmm, you say you're not meaning to be rude, but your response comes off as pretty harsh. I did not dispute your method of growing, nor that roots need airy media. Nowhere did I state anything that contradicted you at all. What I did say was that your system works for you, which it does. I'm not disputing your method at all, but what works for you might not work for mr. philips in his growing conditions. Just like what I do might not work for him.

There is no one perfect method for everyone.

[bil]

Originally Posted by PaphLover

bil,

Hmmm, you say you're not meaning to be rude, but your response comes off as pretty harsh. I did not dispute your method of growing, nor that roots need airy media. Nowhere did I state anything that contradicted you at all. What I did say was that your system works for you, which it does. I'm not disputing your method at all, but what works for you might not work for mr. philips in his growing conditions. Just like what I do might not work for him.

There is no one perfect method for everyone.

I'm really not trying to start a fight, but I am trying to make a point, and it is an important one.
You are absolutely right to say that what what works for one, won't work for another, but there are some ground rules that work for everyone because they are based on hard physics.

Watering, well, as you say, one person's setup can be radically dryer or more humid, and this will affect how and how much you water.

The air requirements are a bit different. A dense, wet medium will be more opaque to the transmission of air, and if it is used above a certain depth, root rot is very likely as soon as the medium breaks down at all, or is kept too wet.. An open medium that allows free transmission of air can be used in thicker layers, and is less prone to causing root rot..

It doesn't matter where you are or how you grow, the term overpotting is grossly misused. I have very, very seldom seen anyone on here make the point that overpotting refers to the depth of medium.

I see people advocating ramming plants into tiny pots, and yet no one can show me any advantage to the plant from having cramped roots. Until someone can, I will continue to press for the use of wide, shallow pots that allow the roots to spread out more.

Neither this post or my last one was meant as an attack on anyone, least of all you.

I am just trying to get people to stop worrying about diameter, and focus on depth.

[mrphilips]

it has been a while since i repotted it... maybe that will help too. and i'll try the fertilizer suggestion.

i also worry that the outer pot isn't airing out well enough? not sure, but i'll keep an eye out for a small orchid pot with holes instead of the dinosaur mug (even though i think it looks great in there).

Bil, the sphag in the bottom is intriguing - when i repot i'll consider tucking a bit of that down in there too, but it'll depend on the condition of roots as i don't want to keep them too moist. i'm not sure about moving to a wider pot yet simply because i don't see those around here, but i'll keep an eye out at the orchid shows and maybe move to wider and shallower over equally wide and deep.

thanks, stay tuned for updates

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

i thought you came off a bit intense at first too, but it's so easy to misread emotional content online, and i understand your passion.

"I am just trying to get people to stop worrying about diameter, and focus on depth."

i think you could very well be right. most everyone has pushed me towards narrow pots, but shallow might work better for me, if i can find them.

meanwhile, i'm going to try a few of PaphLover's suggestions and see what difference i can make

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

well, surprise surprise surprise... major case of root rot.
there are literally no roots left on it.

i'll repot it anyway and see if i can encourage it to develop some, but i feel like this is potentially fatal?

i wonder when this started... it was doing quite fine a few months ago and has been for a few years

[bil]

Originally Posted by mrphilips

it has been a while since i repotted it... maybe that will help too. and i'll try the fertilizer suggestion.

i also worry that the outer pot isn't airing out well enough? not sure, but i'll keep an eye out for a small orchid pot with holes instead of the dinosaur mug (even though i think it looks great in there).

Bil, the sphag in the bottom is intriguing - when i repot i'll consider tucking a bit of that down in there too, but it'll depend on the condition of roots as i don't want to keep them too moist. i'm not sure about moving to a wider pot yet simply because i don't see those around here, but i'll keep an eye out at the orchid shows and maybe move to wider and shallower over equally wide and deep.

thanks, stay tuned for updates

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

i thought you came off a bit intense at first too, but it's so easy to misread emotional content online, and i understand your passion.

"I am just trying to get people to stop worrying about diameter, and focus on depth."

i think you could very well be right. most everyone has pushed me towards narrow pots, but shallow might work better for me, if i can find them.

meanwhile, i'm going to try a few of PaphLover's suggestions and see what difference i can make

I spotted some plastic trays used for bits and bobs in the bathroom, made of plastic, looks like wickerwork. They are shallow and the faux wickerwork allows for ventilation at the sides, tho they are so shallow, I doubt that is needed.
I had to make my own pots so I could have really shallow ones as they simply aren't available on the market.
Basically, Paphlover is very right that different setups require different approaches, and the depth of a given medium will vary, obviously, but the point is, if you shoot for a shallow media, you have a lot less to worry about. Using the term overpotting is so very misleading.