Laelia cinnabarina flower sheath - Orchid Board

MCSchrum · #1 10-30-2015, 02:43 PM

I have a mature sized Laelia cinnabarina that just finished a new growth. The flower sheath and the sheath around the pseudobulb dried out at the same time. My question is, will this plant bloom from a dried flower sheath? What time of year should I expect blooms from this orchid?

I have read that some of the rupicolous Laelias require a cool dry winter rest in order to bloom. But how extreme of a rest do they need? I would assume that I shouldn't let it dry as much as my Dendrobium kingianum.

I've got it in an east facing window with T5 lights. It's about 3-4 inches away from the T5s. Is this enough light to bloom rupicolous Laelias?

WhiteRabbit · #2 10-31-2015, 08:58 PM

silken · #3 10-31-2015, 11:02 PM

Well, the Baker's culture sheet in the description often mention the sheaths if there are sheaths, but no mention of it on this one. Doesn't mean it can't get a sheath tho. It just says the very tall erect inflorescence emerges from the most recent mature pseudo bulb. Bloom time in the wild is late winter to early spring. They do need quite a dry cool winter rest. 66-68F day and 50-52F nights. Very little water unless bulbs or leaves start to shrivel, maybe a bit of misting. Also no fertilizer. And it says they need very high light or they won't flower. Around 3000 to 4000 FC but if increasing to do it gradually. These are considered a bit difficult to grow because of their culture requirements. Good luck with it and hope it blooms.

katrina · #4 11-01-2015, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCSchrum

I've got it in an east facing window with T5 lights. It's about 3-4 inches away from the T5s. Is this enough light to bloom rupicolous Laelias?

I am by no means an expert when it comes to the rupics...they have given me more trouble over the years than I care to remember. But...I do feel like I'm starting to get the hang of this group because I'm now getting blooms and I'm actually getting decent root growth.

And just so we're all on the same page here...everything I'm about to share applies only to the true rupics. I've heard people call some species rupics that aren't really rupics...species like kerrii and lundii. Those are small and cute but they are not true rupics. What I'm referring to are those that have the tiny, fat pbulbs and the fat, thick little leaves that grow upright...like cinnabarina, reginae, lillputana, briegeri, etc.

I didn't start getting any of them to bloom until I began growing them in full sun in the warmer months. During the winter they are under HO T5s (54 watts each) and then as soon as it's warm enough they go out and site w/the cactus. Since I made the switch...yay! - blooms. Keep in mind, I live in Columbus, Ohio so my sun is what is is...if I lived in San Antonio, TX, or Phoenix, AZ, or one of those super arid SoCal locations...well, I might not need to be this extreme (only folks in those climates can decide that) but in the native habitat many of these little plants sit out in the open w/little to no protection. ?? Hot, bright, and very exposed. If your location is one that is like that of the arid SW then I would do a lot more acclimating and I watch but these guys need extremely high light.

As for this species in particular...my cinnabarina blooms during the summer (I think mine started in June) and it goes for quite a long time because it's more of a sequential bloomer. It'll open a couple/few and those will bloom for a period of time and then those fade and more swell and open. This goes on for several weeks during the warmest part of the summer. This year the flowers stopped but the spike remained viable so I left it and this fall it ended up popping out 2 more flowers. The spike is now starting to brown and dry up. All of my spikes have come from sheaths on this one but I don't remember if they were green or dried when the spikes emerged. BTW - this group is notorious for making sheaths whether they will bloom or not.

Along w/the full sun treatment (again, true rupics here) I also water them more than most people discuss. After hearing Francisco Miranda give a talk on these things...I now water every day in the summer and during the time when the growths first develop. I've even been known to leave them sitting in a little bit of standing water for a day or so. I also switched my medium to bonsai mix. All of the changes were made after hearing Francisco give his talk...he's seen these guys in their native habitat and he knows his stuff when it comes to growing them. He explained that many of these little ones grow on the rocks but their roots are in the crevices which hold a gritty soil-like mix of debris. The most eye-opening thing I learned during his talk is that in nature true rupics spend a good deal of time under water during the rainy season. I'm talking weeks! According to Francisco that can be upwards of 6 weeks or more! Not necessarily the whole plants that entire time but at the very least their roots are submerged during much of this time. That made me think that I likely hadn't been watering them enough and since that change I now have growths that are fat and healthy rather than shriveled. I suspect a lot of people actually underwater this group during key periods in their growth.

As for temps...I don't give them any special cool treatment but in the winter my furnace doesn't kick on at night until it drops to 58. And, during a large portion of the winter they are drier than in the summer because the lights are very dry and I only water that group 2 or 3 times a week. So, drier but not bone dry.

I hope at least some of that helps.

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 AM ----------

I found a pic of mine from this past blooming (before the orchids went outside this past summer)...it's not a great pic but it shows the tub I have it sitting in so it can stand in just a bit of water.

Please note - that stand is not it's usual winter spot...it had to be moved there due to the spike. Usually it sits in a spot that has it much closer to the bulbs.

The spike continued to grow as the flowers continued to develop...for weeks. As I said, it just recently popped a couple more flowers very late this year and now the spike is finally dying off. I think it had flowers for most of the summer.

estación seca · #5 11-03-2015, 03:12 AM

I was to spots outside Diamantina in Minas Gerais, Brazil during their winter. It is sandy desert with a lot of rocky dikes. We were looking at cactus but I couldn't help but notice all the Laelias growing on the rocks. Nobody on the trip was an orchid specialist so I don't know what species they are. But I echo what katrina just wrote. I have photos which I will attach another day, but I have to go to bed soon.

This is a higher-elevation part of MG. The area featured gently-sloping white sand with long linear dikes of rock threaded here and there. The dikes were 1-15 feet / 0.3-12m wide and extended straight for many feet/meters. They protruded above the sand by only a few inches. The tops of the dikes were flat but cracked and eroded. They had a scattering of sand. Forests of Laelias grew here in full sun and were purple. There was no evidence of dead grass surrounding them.

Temperatures in mid-winter were in the 80s during the day. Local people in Diamantina told me they frequently get frost at night during the winter. The area receives summer rain only, but there would be dew on some nights during the winter.

It was obvious seeing the terrain that the sand is wet in the low spots all summer long, but not much rain falls. The Laelias could easily reach the sand with their roots. In lower areas where water would pool for longer periods of time grew a Philodendrum that looked like selloum. A dwarf palm, possibly a Syagrus, also grew near a low spot. Cipocereus cactus grew on the dikes (these are related to Pilosocereus), and Discocactus grew in the sugar sand at the base of a cliff where it was clearly very wet during the summer.

MCSchrum · #6 11-03-2015, 05:31 PM

Wow, I would never have expected these plants to do well with so much water during the growing season. everything I've read leads me to believe that these plants like to dry out rather quickly like most of the their Cattleya alliance relatives.

Wynn Dee13 · #7 11-03-2015, 11:53 PM

Katrina- What type of bonsai medium do you use? And what kind of pot? I have bought these guys from multiple vendors and I have received them in everything from plastic pots and moss to clay pots with small rocks. Some came in air cone pots with bark mix and some in clay pots with granite chips. The couple I have right now are in clay pots and small rocks with a small amount of spaghnum moss around the base of the plant. I can tell I need to water mine more and since I grow under lights in the winter, they dry out from the lights. That's why I added a bit of moss. So I was just wondering if the bonsai mix you use is rocky or if it holds water. I have never grown bonsai so I just looked up mediums for bonsai and they are all across the board. A lot like orchid mediums. Your post was very helpful! I put mine outside in summer too so I think I need to up water and probably more light.
The ones I received in sphagnum did have plump pbulbs and nice roots but at the time everyone said they should be grown in rocks. I guess I need to experiment some and see what works in my conditions. I saved your post to refer back to. I would love to hear Francisco Miranda speak about these little Laelias! Thanks for your help and hopefully we will see more flower pics of these Laelias in the future!
Good luck MCSchrum!!!

katrina · #8 11-04-2015, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynn Dee13

Katrina- What type of bonsai medium do you use? And what kind of pot? I have bought these guys from multiple vendors and I have received them in everything from plastic pots and moss to clay pots with small rocks. Some came in air cone pots with bark mix and some in clay pots with granite chips.

The most recent (last year) bonsai mix I bought was from Repotme because I was doing an order for some other stuff so it was easier. I got the 'Inorganic 75/25 Bonsai Soil Mix' and I added in a little bit of Repotme's jewel mix to give it a little bit of "dirt" that Francisco recommended putting in the mix. I'm not very exact about things...I just mix them together in a container until it's the consistency I like. Per F's recommendations I'm going for gritty and small chunks w/a "little bit of dirt". I hope that makes sense and I would bet you could find something locally that would fit that bill.

As for pots...I am using a mix of aircone and clay and I think the clay ones are growing a little bit better but it's not a dramatic difference. I like the aircones because I can see how the roots are doing but the plants in clay are doing so well they are pushing themselves up and out of the pots. Both appear to have really good roots systems...which is a milestone for me.

Trial and error...you'll get it. I've killed a few of these along the way and now I'm at a point where I'm starting to give some away. After all of the frustration...I'm realizing I don't even like some of them. LOL!

DeaC · #9 11-04-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estación seca

I was to spots outside Diamantina in Minas Gerais, Brazil during their winter. It is sandy desert with a lot of rocky dikes. We were looking at cactus but I couldn't help but notice all the Laelias growing on the rocks. Nobody on the trip was an orchid specialist so I don't know what species they are. But I echo what katrina just wrote. I have photos which I will attach another day, but I have to go to bed soon.

This is a higher-elevation part of MG. The area featured gently-sloping white sand with long linear dikes of rock threaded here and there. The dikes were 1-15 feet / 0.3-12m wide and extended straight for many feet/meters. They protruded above the sand by only a few inches. The tops of the dikes were flat but cracked and eroded. They had a scattering of sand. Forests of Laelias grew here in full sun and were purple. There was no evidence of dead grass surrounding them.

Temperatures in mid-winter were in the 80s during the day. Local people in Diamantina told me they frequently get frost at night during the winter. The area receives summer rain only, but there would be dew on some nights during the winter.

It was obvious seeing the terrain that the sand is wet in the low spots all summer long, but not much rain falls. The Laelias could easily reach the sand with their roots. In lower areas where water would pool for longer periods of time grew a Philodendrum that looked like selloum. A dwarf palm, possibly a Syagrus, also grew near a low spot. Cipocereus cactus grew on the dikes (these are related to Pilosocereus), and Discocactus grew in the sugar sand at the base of a cliff where it was clearly very wet during the summer.

Feel like you've hosted me on a great tour! Your posts are so informative and a hoot to read! TY

Wynn Dee13 · #10 11-04-2015, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katrina

The most recent (last year) bonsai mix I bought was from Repotme because I was doing an order for some other stuff so it was easier. I got the 'Inorganic 75/25 Bonsai Soil Mix' and I added in a little bit of Repotme's jewel mix to give it a little bit of "dirt" that Francisco recommended putting in the mix. I'm not very exact about things...I just mix them together in a container until it's the consistency I like. Per F's recommendations I'm going for gritty and small chunks w/a "little bit of dirt". I hope that makes sense and I would bet you could find something locally that would fit that bill.

As for pots...I am using a mix of aircone and clay and I think the clay ones are growing a little bit better but it's not a dramatic difference. I like the aircones because I can see how the roots are doing but the plants in clay are doing so well they are pushing themselves up and out of the pots. Both appear to have really good roots systems...which is a milestone for me.

Trial and error...you'll get it. I've killed a few of these along the way and now I'm at a point where I'm starting to give some away. After all of the frustration...I'm realizing I don't even like some of them. LOL!

Thank you! These guys can be very frustrating. I fell in love with them years ago after seeing liliputana in an orchid book I have. I have killed a few myself and they aren't that easy to find! They are hard to get good root systems too so congrats on finding what they like. I hope I can get my favorite little liliputana to bloom someday! I have bloomed L. harpophylla a few times but it seems easier than the others that have the small bulbs and thicker leaves.