How does an orchid "know" that it is pot bound?

[astrid]

Originally Posted by bil

Me. I am sadistic and cruel enough to experiment. I make sure that I ALWAYS wet the crown. Wet it? I fill it. EVERY SINGLE TIME. The only one I have lost from crown rot was one among 6 who were a bit too cold, and who were watered very carefully. I was concerned about them so I kept them as dry as poss. They NEVER had a wet crown.

In addition, I have never found a phal that will hold water. I fill the crowns, they drain out.

In the wild, the crowns will get wet, as mist gets everywhere. I don't water after a certain time, because in the wild I figure they dry out before nightfall usually, and I don't think cold and wet is good. I think it's the cold that does the damage, but moisture will 'up' the chill factor and perhaps push the plant over the edge.

You are from Spain correct? So this is a pretty hot climate. I would be curious to try this in a cooler climate like I have where I live.

Maybe we should get more "cruel monsters" like you experimenting on some cheap phals!! haha!

I once lost a Nelly Isler to (what I think was) erwinia bacteria/ soft brown rot. I blamed myself up and down for getting water in the leaves, but now I realize that it was not my fault at all as I've always been careful. It was just a disease that rotted it.

So many people I know just spray their orchids with water willy-nilly and never have a problem, maybe I should get braver!

Maybe I'll buy a cheap little phal to abuse. XD
I always attach feelings to my orchids so I feel guilty if I harm them even on accident! Like if you step on a dog's foot... it feels so sad!

[lotis146]

Last summer I bought a couple of rescue Phals on impulse. Having already grown my collection exponentially in a matter of months I felt rather guilty, thus I didn't immediately attach to them & I left them outside without thinking where I had left them. They got sun burnt really bad as a result. So then I moved them to a shadier place and they stayed out in at least a day of rain (can't remember how long and how much now). As a result within no more than a few weeks (and I think I'm exaggerating) at least one of them showed signs of crown rot. Then they both did. Now more than 6 months later, and one of them dying from the crown rot, the second who lost all above-ground vegetation still has a whole host of green roots in the pot/medium. I continue to care for it to see what happens, although admittedly I haven't watered it in over a week.

I have two Phals I put out in the summer who are doing quite well, those I tilt on their side when it rains so water does not sit in the crown.

I definitely agree that the cold must play into it as well as the overall conditions because I've been to Hausermann's and seen them watering, they don't go out of their way to make sure no water gets in the crowns.

I don't worry too much about how I water all of my other plants though sometimes I wonder when I see water pooled in a new growth, especially if they may be in the cold. While it's rather cool here now but not for too long, the main reason I brought ALL my plants back in is because they've been getting rain for days so they're soaked; I worry leaving them in the cold like this will certainly end badly.

[bil]

Originally Posted by astrid

You are from Spain correct? So this is a pretty hot climate. I would be curious to try this in a cooler climate like I have where I live.

Maybe we should get more "cruel monsters" like you experimenting on some cheap phals!! haha!

I once lost a Nelly Isler to (what I think was) erwinia bacteria/ soft brown rot. I blamed myself up and down for getting water in the leaves, but now I realize that it was not my fault at all as I've always been careful. It was just a disease that rotted it.

So many people I know just spray their orchids with water willy-nilly and never have a problem, maybe I should get braver!

Maybe I'll buy a cheap little phal to abuse. XD
I always attach feelings to my orchids so I feel guilty if I harm them even on accident! Like if you step on a dog's foot... it feels so sad!

Here's a little story. A man was collecting recipes, and a woman was telling him how she cooked this particular ham joint. She started by washing the joint, and then cutting the 'corner' off it. He asked why, and she couldn't give a reason, except that her mother had told her. So, the guy contacted the mother who said that that's how HER mother had taught her. Fortunately the grandmother was still alive, so he went and asked her. She explained that her biggest cook pot wasn't big enough for the whole joint, so she always had to cut the corner off....

There's a lesson there.

To me it is counter intuitive to blame wet leaves. I am more than happy though to listen to anyone who can give a valid explanation. The one I favour is that if the orchid is dangerously close to the coldest it can stand, then wetting it when evaporation will cool it might well push it into cellular breakdown. That of course is wet, and that could quite easily make people thing that the water was the direct cause. I do agree that wetting leaves in cold situations is pretty foolish, but because of the chilling rather than the wetting. Where temps are high enough to evaporate the water without chilling, I think washing the leaves down is a good thing.

Yeah, I'm in South Spain.

[astrid]

Originally Posted by bil

Here's a little story. A man was collecting recipes, and a woman was telling him how she cooked this particular ham joint. She started by washing the joint, and then cutting the 'corner' off it. He asked why, and she couldn't give a reason, except that her mother had told her. So, the guy contacted the mother who said that that's how HER mother had taught her. Fortunately the grandmother was still alive, so he went and asked her. She explained that her biggest cook pot wasn't big enough for the whole joint, so she always had to cut the corner off....

There's a lesson there.

To me it is counter intuitive to blame wet leaves. I am more than happy though to listen to anyone who can give a valid explanation. The one I favour is that if the orchid is dangerously close to the coldest it can stand, then wetting it when evaporation will cool it might well push it into cellular breakdown. That of course is wet, and that could quite easily make people thing that the water was the direct cause. I do agree that wetting leaves in cold situations is pretty foolish, but because of the chilling rather than the wetting. Where temps are high enough to evaporate the water without chilling, I think washing the leaves down is a good thing.

Yeah, I'm in South Spain.

I appreciate that rational take on it!

It's hard to find valid scientific studies on orchids, so we're all left to hearsay and opinion I think. I always remind myself that orchids get rained on in nature. The heavens open up and dump water on them, and they're not so careful as to avoid the crown of the plant.

But I have just had it drilled into my head that a wet crown will make a dead plant so now I have to personally experiment and see what happens. Oh how I wish I could just become a botanist and get fatty federal grants to study orchids, but I don't think there's a strong enough interest to justify funding haha!

I guess we should all make the habit of saying, "Hey, where did you learn this information?"

[bil]

Originally Posted by astrid

I appreciate that rational take on it!

It's hard to find valid scientific studies on orchids, so we're all left to hearsay and opinion I think. I always remind myself that orchids get rained on in nature. The heavens open up and dump water on them, and they're not so careful as to avoid the crown of the plant.

But I have just had it drilled into my head that a wet crown will make a dead plant so now I have to personally experiment and see what happens. Oh how I wish I could just become a botanist and get fatty federal grants to study orchids, but I don't think there's a strong enough interest to justify funding haha!

I guess we should all make the habit of saying, "Hey, where did you learn this information?"

Thankyou. I often hear people counter this by saying "But in nature they hang down." Yeah, but mist and condensation get EVERYWHERE.

I would say to anyone. Get a cheap NOID phal and try and kill it by wetting the crown. Try and fill the crown with water and see if it dies. For the last year, all of mine with the exception of 6 in the garage during the winter have had their crowns filled every time they get watered. The only one that did get it was one of the garage ones whose crowns were kept dry all the time because they were so cold there.

If you accept everything you are told blindly without experimenting, you will get stuck with all sorts of dodgy info.
It's one of the advantages of being taught science. a) it teaches you to question, and b) it gives to the tools to question with.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by lotis146

... Perhaps it would be a wonderful challenge and experiment for all willing to take a plant we're quite comfortable with and repot it bigger than is recommended (next time it needs repot) while taking medium drying time into account and just letting it be free!!!

I often repot into what most people consider to be "too big of a pot". I do it w/my catt alliance regularly because I think they do better when left undisturbed as long as possible. BUT...I pot into media that doesn't break down AND my media of choice (usually leca or lava rock) dries fairly quick.

Below is a pic from sometime in the spring 2011 when I took a B nodosa out of a teak basket and let me tell you...it was quite the surgery. I ended up w/3 plants (2 of which have since found new homes)...the piece I kept is in the "bowl" in the back of the pic. This was taken when I finished the surgery that year. As you can see, the pot is far bigger than what most people would consider "acceptable" for the size of the plant. It's potted in leca and that is a sheet moss layer on top.



This is the same plant - taken July 2013 - I can't find last year's pic but it's now growing out of the pots.


A bit over 2 yrs and it's pretty much filled that pot. Today - 4yrs after the surgery - it's growing outside the pot and invading it's shelf mates. I think we can all agree...it seems quite happy having room to spread out.

I think the key w/"tight shoes" is more about making sure the plant isn't over-watered. A "too big" pot and medium that hold moisture = death to most roots. Use a media the drains and dries fast and secure the plant properly and a "too big" pot isn't going to hurt the plant in the slightest. At least not in my experience.

[bil]

Originally Posted by katrina

I often repot into what most people consider to be "too big of a pot". I do it w/my catt alliance regularly because I think they do better when left undisturbed as long as possible. BUT...I pot into media that doesn't break down AND my media of choice (usually leca or lava rock) dries fairly quick.

Below is a pic from sometime in the spring 2011 when I took a B nodosa out of a teak basket and let me tell you...it was quite the surgery. I ended up w/3 plants (2 of which have since found new homes)...the piece I kept is in the "bowl" in the back of the pic. This was taken when I finished the surgery that year. As you can see, the pot is far bigger than what most people would consider "acceptable" for the size of the plant. It's potted in leca and that is a sheet moss layer on top.



This is the same plant - taken July 2013 - I can't find last year's pic but it's now growing out of the pots.


A bit over 2 yrs and it's pretty much filled that pot. Today - 4yrs after the surgery - it's growing outside the pot and invading it's shelf mates. I think we can all agree...it seems quite happy having room to spread out.

I think the key w/"tight shoes" is more about making sure the plant isn't over-watered. A "too big" pot and medium that hold moisture = death to most roots. Use a media the drains and dries fast and secure the plant properly and a "too big" pot isn't going to hurt the plant in the slightest. At least not in my experience.

Beautiful plant. The more I read about this, the more I am convinced that in most cases, the only thing that matters is, "Can the roots breathe and get enough water?"
Beyond that, size is irrelevant.

[Leafmite]

This is the same reason I use red lava rock. You can put the tiniest seedlings in red lava rock and a large basket pot and never worry about the roots rotting as there is always going to be plenty of air getting to them. You can leave the orchid in that and, when it needs a larger pot, just drop the entire thing into the larger pot, never disturbing the roots.

Crown rot. Many orchids live where it is humid, rains and even in places with cooler temperatures but what prevents crown rot in these situations in the breeze. The same goes for preventing fungus attacks with many other plants. That is why, in large commercial greenhouses, you usually have fans running.

[bil]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

This is the same reason I use red lava rock. You can put the tiniest seedlings in red lava rock and a large basket pot and never worry about the roots rotting as there is always going to be plenty of air getting to them. You can leave the orchid in that and, when it needs a larger pot, just drop the entire thing into the larger pot, never disturbing the roots.

Crown rot. Many orchids live where it is humid, rains and even in places with cooler temperatures but what prevents crown rot in these situations in the breeze. The same goes for preventing fungus attacks with many other plants. That is why, in large commercial greenhouses, you usually have fans running.

Is that the case, or is it that air movement allows for cooling in high humidity? I just don't see a healthy, happy plant succumbing to crown rot thru moisture. What I do see is a plant that is stressed, or damaged thru high heat/cold suffering tissue damage, and it being that tissue damage that allows the fungus access.

[Leafmite]

Originally Posted by bil

Is that the case, or is it that air movement allows for cooling in high humidity? I just don't see a healthy, happy plant succumbing to crown rot thru moisture. What I do see is a plant that is stressed, or damaged thru high heat/cold suffering tissue damage, and it being that tissue damage that allows the fungus access.

It depends on what you are growing, I think. Some orchids are much more resistant while others...not so much.