phal outside.. leaves floppy?

[aries23]

I put my Phal outside two days ago and the leaves seem so floppy. Inside they were nice and stiff. Why is this happening. Today I changed the medium from chc to just plain old coconut husk long fibers.... why the sudden change from indoors and outdoors. I thought the leaves would be firmer outside then inside. Phal is named P. Artic Dawn.

[Eyebabe]

Phals are really picky....I would think they are having trouble acclimating; temperature and humidity I'm sure is alot different than the house.
With my windows open on this nice day, my humidity dropped to 30%
I'd try to increase the humidity level AND their circulation.
Good luck

[Pinoychids]

Originally Posted by Eyebabe

Phals are really picky....I would think they are having trouble acclimating; temperature and humidity I'm sure is alot different than the house.
With my windows open on this nice day, my humidity dropped to 30%
I'd try to increase the humidity level AND their circulation.
Good luck

I couldn't agree more.....water in the medium evaporates alot quicker outdoor than indoor. Therefore, dehydration is my suspected cause.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I don't recommend growing Phals outdoors where you live (aries23 - Delaware, USA).

Too many factors to describe.

I think you need to know where Phals come from. I think you're misunderstanding what the conditions these plants are really exposed to are like in the wild.

Phals for the most part come from the tropics of Asia. Specifically places like Taiwan, The Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia.

Many of the evergreen Phals come from low to mid-land swamp forests.

Swamp forests are humid.

Places like Indonesia and Malaysia (where the majority of the Phals are) are made humid from the seas that surround them, then add on the humidity coming from the forest floor and the swamp water. I've been to Indonesia, so I know what the climate is like there.

Places in the United States such as parts of Florida are where the humidity resembles the humidity of tropical Asia (been to Florida as well).

It is also warm. The coolest it gets is usually around 60 F.

Monsoon season is a pretty regular seasonal occurrence in tropical Asia. During monsoon season, when it rains, it pours, often causing floods.

Unless this is what Delaware is like or close to what it's like (which I know it's not, because I have relatives from Delaware), I don't advise growing Phals outdoors where you live.

[aries23]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

I don't recommend growing Phals outdoors where you live (aries23 - Delaware, USA).

Too many factors to describe.

I think you need to know where Phals come from. I think you're misunderstanding what the conditions these plants are really exposed to are like in the wild.

Phals for the most part come from the tropics of Asia. Specifically places like Taiwan, The Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia.

Many of the evergreen Phals come from low to mid-land swamp forests.

Swamp forests are humid.

Places like Indonesia and Malaysia (where the majority of the Phals are) are made humid from the seas that surround them, then add on the humidity coming from the forest floor and the swamp water. I've been to Indonesia, so I know what the climate is like there.

Places in the United States such as parts of Florida are where the humidity resembles the humidity of tropical Asia (been to Florida as well).

It is also warm. The coolest it gets is usually around 60 F.

Monsoon season is a pretty regular seasonal occurrence in tropical Asia. During monsoon season, when it rains, it pours, often causing floods.

Unless this is what Delaware is like or close to what it's like (which I know it's not, because I have relatives from Delaware), I don't advise growing Phals outdoors where you live.

Ok I put the Phals outside because I saw the Den Phal was doing well , putting out new roots. Thats my main reason. The Phals indoors did not put out anything in a month. So now what ? I either quit buying them and buy phags or what ever else you mentioned but they are not available to me locally. Only Phals are. Since you are familiar with Delaware maybe you know a place where I can get them... Thanks again King

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I never said to not grow Phals. I got nothing to gain from giving you advice on how to grow Phals. You're the one reaping most of the benefits.

I used to work at a well known orchid nursery here in Monteclair, CA (this is a dead giveaway as to where I used to work). I was trained in growing Phalaenopsis. Even the person who trained me admitted to the many difficulties of growing Phalaenopsis.

Phalaenopsis hybrids for the most part are not bred here in the United States. They're bred in Asia in places like Taiwan and Malaysia (these two countries being the largest exporters of Phalaenopsis in the world). There are obviously a few places in the US that do breed their own line, but in limited numbers.

I also think it's important to understand the treatment of your orchids before they reach your home.

The orchid nursery I used to work at would take in a shipment from Taiwan or Malaysia (a 16 wheeler trailer full of boxes crammed with Phals and Catts), and instead of unpacking them, we'd send them via FedEx to other smaller nurseries around the country. We even sold Phals directly to places like The Home Depot or Trader Joe's.

In regards to a Phal's natural habitat...

You don't have to blindly believe me. Here, I'll pull up links to someone else's Flickr account and show you. The pictures don't lie...

Healthy colony on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal habitat on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Video: Phalaenopsis in situ on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Small plants very close to water on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy phal on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy phal on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal roots on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal on stilt roots of a fig tree on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy colony on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Photographing phals in situ on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Feel free to peruse the pics of "sarawaklens" on his Flickr account at your leisure. You can also check out his blog.

I'm in the boat of, "Why restrict yourself to purchasing locally?"

There are tons of online vendors. Many of which are reputable.

In fact, you're gonna luck out with Andy's Orchids, 'cause they'll be in NJ at the end of the month. The host of this show in NJ is another orchid nursery called Silva Orchids.

Silva Orchids

Here's a page on Andy's Orchids website that has Zygopetalums:

Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Species List in Alpha search

You can even shop on Ebay.

Zygopetalum intermedium - rare fragrant orchid species - eBay (item 380247936563 end time Jul-09-10 18:18:42 PDT)

Cypripediums are out of season right now. But The Vermont Lady Slipper Co, is not that far away from you.

Bletilla striata is pretty common, just do a Google search and you'll pull up vendors that are still selling them (out of season).

Hell, I can sell you a tuber of one of my Bletilla striata if you want. I have three tubers. I can always get another locally next year. They've all got leaves. The ones I'd be willing to sell you won't bloom this year, but next year they most certainly will. It's up to you.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

You can't compare Dendrobiums with Phalaenopsis. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Dendrobiums for the most part come from drier climates. They often grow on trees or rocks. If they're epiphytes, most of them are growing on a tree that is covered in lichens, not moss (lichens need some humidity too, but not as much as moss do). Some Dendrobiums such as Den kingianum (another great beginner's Dendrobium if you've got enough light to provide them), grow on sandstone or some type of granitic rocks in the wild. Same goes for something like Den speciosum.

Dendrobium happens to also be one of the larger families of orchids out there. Much larger than Phalaenopsis, so they tend to be very, very diverse. This is why most people would tell you to narrow down what you've got and what you're talking about. It's no fun having to guess from nearly 1,200 different species, (not including the myriad of hybrids out there!).

[Eyebabe]

Originally Posted by aries23

Ok I put the Phals outside because I saw the Den Phal was doing well , putting out new roots. Thats my main reason. The Phals indoors did not put out anything in a month. So now what ? I either quit buying them and buy phags or what ever else you mentioned but they are not available to me locally. Only Phals are. Since you are familiar with Delaware maybe you know a place where I can get them... Thanks again King

I think you misunderstood the point of King's advice.
There was no suggestion of NOT growing Phals....I took it to mean that doing some research as to what type of climate they thrive in would enable you to mimic, as best you can, the same environment in your home.

I do the following for my Phals and believe me...I still suck at keeping them mostly alive:
I try to keep them generally WARM, HUMID, with decent air flow. I use a WARM air humidifier near them and they get a decent amount of light but much less than my catts.
I use a Wonderlite grow light to supplement the window and the position of the Phals is further down and away etc.

If you look up the conditions for growing you will see Phals require low light...about 1500-2000 candles; high humidity 70-80%; and temperatures between 75F-85F.
Now my home is certainly NOT dim, humid and hot
BUT, I do the best that I can and they do pretty well.

Remember!!!! If everyone could very easily keep Phals alive and well, there would be no point in Lowes or HD carrying them. They sell the volume they do b/c people are replacing the plants they kill.
Furthermore, when you get the plant, as King mentioned it has just spent the last two weeks being "shipped" from it's cozy home and may just die in a few weeks due to the stress of the trip etc...not something "you did".

One final note, if you like a book in your hand instead of a laptop, I have found the following to be a decent reference for Phals:
Moth Orchids: The Complete Guide to Phalaenopsis by Steven A. Frowine.

[aries23]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

I never said to not grow Phals. I got nothing to gain from giving you advice on how to grow Phals. You're the one reaping most of the benefits.

I used to work at a well known orchid nursery here in Monteclair, CA (this is a dead giveaway as to where I used to work). I was trained in growing Phalaenopsis. Even the person who trained me admitted to the many difficulties of growing Phalaenopsis.

Phalaenopsis hybrids for the most part are not bred here in the United States. They're bred in Asia in places like Taiwan and Malaysia (these two countries being the largest exporters of Phalaenopsis in the world). There are obviously a few places in the US that do breed their own line, but in limited numbers.

I also think it's important to understand the treatment of your orchids before they reach your home.

The orchid nursery I used to work at would take in a shipment from Taiwan or Malaysia (a 16 wheeler trailer full of boxes crammed with Phals and Catts), and instead of unpacking them, we'd send them via FedEx to other smaller nurseries around the country. We even sold Phals directly to places like The Home Depot or Trader Joe's.

In regards to a Phal's natural habitat...

You don't have to blindly believe me. Here, I'll pull up links to someone else's Flickr account and show you. The pictures don't lie...

Healthy colony on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal habitat on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Video: Phalaenopsis in situ on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Small plants very close to water on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy phal on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy phal on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal roots on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Phal on stilt roots of a fig tree on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Healthy colony on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Photographing phals in situ on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Feel free to peruse the pics of "sarawaklens" on his Flickr account at your leisure. You can also check out his blog.

I'm in the boat of, "Why restrict yourself to purchasing locally?"

There are tons of online vendors. Many of which are reputable.

In fact, you're gonna luck out with Andy's Orchids, 'cause they'll be in NJ at the end of the month. The host of this show in NJ is another orchid nursery called Silva Orchids.

Silva Orchids

Here's a page on Andy's Orchids website that has Zygopetalums:

Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Species List in Alpha search

You can even shop on Ebay.

Zygopetalum intermedium - rare fragrant orchid species - eBay (item 380247936563 end time Jul-09-10 18:18:42 PDT)

Cypripediums are out of season right now. But The Vermont Lady Slipper Co, is not that far away from you.

Bletilla striata is pretty common, just do a Google search and you'll pull up vendors that are still selling them (out of season).

Hell, I can sell you a tuber of one of my Bletilla striata if you want. I have three tubers. I can always get another locally next year. They've all got leaves. The ones I'd be willing to sell you won't bloom this year, but next year they most certainly will. It's up to you.

Thank you King,

You have an amazing experience with Orchids and trust me that I believe every bit of it! So I looked up the Andy's Orchids. And I liked this one 2409 Zygopetalum

It states Bright Light.... I only have this during Spring Summer and outside for this matter. Will it go indoors or outdoors?? And I know you mentioned before I could do Cats too and Phags or phahs ??

Do all Orchids need a humid environment?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by aries23

Thank you King,

You have an amazing experience with Orchids and trust me that I believe every bit of it! So I looked up the Andy's Orchids. And I liked this one 2409 Zygopetalum

Nice. I've never grown Zygopetalum triste. It sounds like it grows a bit differently than the other Zygos do, (basing it off of the description saying, "subterranean bulbs"). The Zygos I've grown have pseudobulbs that should not be buried in the potting media.

I did pull up some info on them on Jay's Internet Orchid Encyclopedia.

IOSPE PHOTOS

Your job now is to look up the locale of where this plant comes from, namely Minas Gerais.

Originally Posted by aries23

It states Bright Light.... I only have this during Spring Summer and outside for this matter. Will it go indoors or outdoors??

This plant can be grown in less light than the recommended brightness that Andy has up on his site. Don't worry, they'll still bloom. Partial indirect sun is good enough.

Generally speaking, this should be an indoors plant, but you can summer the plant outdoors if you like. Be aware that leaf spotting may occur if you do.

Originally Posted by aries23

And I know you mentioned before I could do Cats too and Phags or phahs ??

Actually "orkie" recommended the Paphs (Paphiopedilum) or Phrags (Phragmipedium).

Paphs and Phrags grow in low light conditions, but they're slow growing. Which is why I didn't recommend them to you.

Let's face it, most people nowadays are impatient. Most beginners in the hobby are impatient. Slow growing plants can cause problems, because the slow growth plays mind games on beginners.

I recommended Laelias. Although Cattleyas are not a bad beginner's orchid either, they're not as temperature tolerant as many Laelias are. If you've got bright enough light for them, maybe something like Laelia tenebrosa or Laelia purpurata are good choices to start off with. Oak Hill Gardens sell established seedlings of both Laelias.

If space is an issue (both the aforementioned Laelias are rather large), you can try your hand with the rupicolous Laelias (they're called rupicolous because they come from rupicolous fields, they're lithophytes - rock growers).

Originally Posted by aries23

Do all Orchids need a humid environment?

No. Not all. It depends on where the orchids are from.

I would recommend a small miniature orchid that is native to your part of the US, but it is not a commonly sold plant. The plants that are sold are rescues from logging.

What is it?

Calypso bulbosa var. americana (in your case, because variety americana comes from the alpine and subalpine areas of the east coast in the US).

These are for certain frost hardy. Their growing season is during the winter where it snows.

It grows in low light.

It is also not a very difficult plant to grow if grown correctly.

And...

Low humidity is not a problem for it.

Same goes for something such as Bletilla striata, which I mentioned was from parts of China where it does experience frost.