unnamed crosses

[tmoney]

hi all,

so i just wanted to confirm some things about purchasing orchids from nurseries. so is it correct that if you buy an orchid labeled as phal “a” x “b” that is a hybrid grown between those two plants? so if it does not already have a name, that means that it is one of the countless plants grown from a seed of that cross and you will not know for sure what the flowers will be like? also, if one had a real super plant from that cross, this is how you would enter for an award and one could possibly register that orchid with a name?

im just asking because we bought many of these types in the beginning, not really knowing what we were doing. and it doesn’t help that our german is only passable and many of the german nurseries have limited to no translation on their pages. looking back, many do not have flower photos, or show only two flowers of the parent species. so i assume with all of the plants labeled as such that we are playing the lottery on what the flowers will look like? assuming we get any!

and also, for dull disclosure, we have no interest in having plants judged or trying to get a named plant or anything. this is just to clarify all the orchids we have in our collection....many with no name, just 2 parents shown on the tag.

perhaps this might benefit other newbies who are looking at websites

[estación seca]

Yes, when you buy an unnamed cross, you don't know what you will get. It will probably be somewhat intermediate between the two parents, but not always. Some plants are known to have a very heavy influence in progeny, like Brassavolas.

The first person to flower a cross traditionally has the right to name the cross. Sometimes the breeder expects to be asked by the person flowering it for the first time for permission to name the cross. The name of the cross is in Capitalized Words after the Genus of the cross.

If an outstanding example of a cross wins an award, or if a breeder thinks an unawarded plant is very good, it may be given a clonal name. That goes in single 'quotation marks' after the cross name.

[Roberta]

If an orchid is labeled "a x b" it is a cross of two plants. If it is "a '1'" x "b '5'" it is a cross between two specific cultivars - the specific plant '1' of the "a" hybrid or species crossed with the specific plant '5' of the other species or hybrid. (Hybridizers, especially the good ones, have a "stable" of stud plants - specific plants that have been awarded or have particular desirable traits, so with select parents, it is hoped that the progeny are also good) I have often gotten unnamed crosses (based on the tag), and then I look it up and find that the plant has been named - registered with the RHS, which maintains the international registry. All that means is that the seedling was put in a pot with a tag describing it, and got named later, the grower didn't go back and replace all the tags. A seed cross can be quite variable... different individuals from the cross may take after one or the other parent, or some mixture, just like children in a family. (You do not look exactly like your brother, though there likely are some characteristics that you have in common)

Yes, getting an unbloomed seedling is a bit like playing the lottery, but if you buy from a hybridizer who puts thought into making the hybrids, I think it is more like buying a painting from an artist. Maybe you'll discover the next Picasso! (I know that's the feeling I get when I acquire a new, unnamed Sunset Valley Orchids hybrid)

A particular individual plant may be given a cultivar name to identify the specific plant. That has no "official" standing unless the plant is awarded. If it gets an award from one of the national organizations (like AOS American Orchid Society, DOG Deutsche Orchideen Gesellschaft, AOC Australian Orchid Council, etc) then it must receive a cultivar name, which indicates that the award went to that particular individual plant. If you have an unnamed hybrid and it is gorgeous and you get it awarded, you can also name the cross (as well as giving it the cultivar name)

Actually, anybody can register a name for an unnamed cross for a small fee (after it blooms, you do have to provide a photo), but if the hybridizer is alive the RHS generally will ask you for permission from them, and it is general courtesy to get that permission anyway. So basically the hybridizer has the first right to name a cross, but they can grant permission to someone else if they wish.

If you want more certainty, you can, of course, get a mericlone - a genetic copy of a particular plant. If you buy Blc. XXX 'Wonderful' AM/AOS maybe it's a division of the awarded plant, but if the price is something that you can actually afford, it's a mericlone - propagated by tissue culture from the named plant. It is a genetic copy and will look essentially identical to the mother plant.

[Ray]

Roberta, I could be wrong, and things might have changed, but when registering a cross, a photo must be provided only if it is a primary (species x species) cross.

[Fairorchids]

Originally Posted by estación seca

Yes, when you buy an unnamed cross, you don't know what you will get. It will probably be somewhat intermediate between the two parents, but not always. Some plants are known to have a very heavy influence in progeny, like Brassavolas.

The first person to flower a cross traditionally has the right to name the cross. Sometimes the breeder expects to be asked by the person flowering it for the first time for permission to name the cross. The name of the cross is in Capitalized Words after the Genus of the cross.

If an outstanding example of a cross wins an award, or if a breeder thinks an unawarded plant is very good, it may be given a clonal name. That goes in single 'quotation marks' after the cross name.

Sorry, incorrect.

The breeder always has the right to name any new cross he/she has made. The buyer can ask for permission to do so, if he/she wishes to register a name.

In some cases, the breeder is unknown (= somebody other than the seller of the plant). If I want to name a plant (usually because I have used it for breeding), first I ask the seller. If the seller doesn't know, or names someone who subsequently denies having made the cross, we are left with 'Originator Unknown'.

In such cases, I wait at least 18 months, to give the originator a reasonable time to register his/her cross. Only if it remains unnamed at that point, would I submit a registration application to the RHS.

Then there are the cases where the parents names give you an indication. For reedstem Epidendrums, when you see (Pacific X x Pacific Y), it is a Cal-Orchid seedling. Jim Rose is notoriously slow in registering his new crosses (but you can bug him).

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by Ray

Roberta, I could be wrong, and things might have changed, but when registering a cross, a photo must be provided only if it is a primary (species x species) cross.

You may be correct on that... the one situation where I did register a plant (where the originator had died but I knew their wishes, they just hadn't gotten around to it) it was a primary.

[tmoney]

great input peeps, thanks for clarifying. i had my suspicions after reading a bunch, but the process of going from pollination to named hybrids get super confusing. it does seem as if there is a lot of trust involved. i suppose the rhs has responsibility there to ensure clarity and giving due credit. so then, ive asked this question before, but what if you are a home breeder, and send your capsule to a big name lab for flasking? is this the situation that Kim was referring to? like, to me it seems obvious that a lab/nursery would get a really great new cross and then just steal it from the breeder just to sell a great new hybrid and never give that person credit. so, who is protecting the little guy in this scenario? or is it just assumed that the home breeder never makes such crosses?

this is all hypothetical of course, im just trying to understand a bit more about the inner working of the orchid breeding world

[Ray]

Originally Posted by tmoney

i suppose the rhs has responsibility there to ensure clarity and giving due credit. so then, ive asked this question before, but what if you are a home breeder, and send your capsule to a big name lab for flasking? is this the situation that Kim was referring to? like, to me it seems obvious that a lab/nursery would get a really great new cross and then just steal it from the breeder just to sell a great new hybrid and never give that person credit. so, who is protecting the little guy in this scenario?

The RHS is simply the registrar; they rely a lot on the integrity of the applicant.

if you make a cross and send the seed capsule to a lab for culturing, you do not tell the lab what the cross is, except for the genera involved.

[Fairorchids]

But, after discussing this with Julian Shaw (the RHS registrar), they do want a flower photo with the application.

[Ray]

From the registration application form: “ A photograph (print, slide or digital image) is a good way to support any application, but is required for primary crosses (those between species) and new hybrid genera.”.