A Different Way To Protect The Ghost Orchid

[Subrosa]

The airport itself isn't on my list. It's completely surrounded by a state park, which opens up a can of worms legally speaking. I'm working strictly with suitable areas created by construction projects.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

The airport itself isn't on my list. It's completely surrounded by a state park, which opens up a can of worms legally speaking. I'm working strictly with suitable areas created by construction projects.

Fair enough. Even so, what you have proposed sounds like it could potentially create some "environmental good will" for the site owners. I bet you could get permission if you ask. Either way, good luck with it.

[Subrosa]

The difference is that the species I'm working with are historically native well within the range of natural means of spreading if suitable habitat existed to support it. Had the construction that created these areas predated the construction of the airport, it is very possible that these species would have found their way in through natural means And the habitat I'm polluting didn't exist 30 or 40 years ago, and in some cases even last year. It was drastically altered, the true natives are largely gone. The dominant species in these areas tend to be generalist species which are abundant in the undisturbed areas surrounding my project areas and many of which aren't native but are long established introductions anyway. Or Phragmites and Purple Loosestrife, an introduced and an invasive respectively.
The potential for damage is miniscule, and the areas that could potentially be damaged hardly compare with the Everglades.

[orchidsarefun]

Subrosa - ignoring the law of unintended consequences with what you are actually doing - please explain the statement how the introduction of a hybrid ( depending on the results of a decades-long study and obvious problems with reproduction for a hybrid - my words in a previous post ) would trigger "areas that could potentially be damaged hardly compare with the Everglades." Orchids are not fast-growing and don't reproduce easily in nature - the reasons why they produce thousands of seeds in an effort to successfully propagate. A hybrid would face the same issues as the Ghost Orchid currently, with theft probably being the top issue. A proposal/idea by epiphyte does not equate with action, nor extinction of the ghost orchid nor damage to the Everglades.
One can agree to disagree with an idea but backing that up with rhetoric doesn't advance the discussion. If epiphyte was personally restocking the Everglades with this hybrid ( and he isn't, he may want to ), then that action may be a match for the outrage expressed previously on this thread.
You are already/justifying 'playing God', with obviously the best of intentions, he is just theorising. As someone pointed out any action by epiphyte would currently be illegal in Florida anyway.

[Subrosa]

Did I say that introducing a hybrid would "trigger areas that could potentially be damaged hardly compare with the Everglades"? No, I didn't. Like epiphyte, you need to be sure of what something actually is before you can begin to decide whether you agree or disagree. Carefully go back over everything I've posted, think about it a while and then decide where you stand on the issues brought up.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

Did I say that introducing a hybrid would "trigger areas that could potentially be damaged hardly compare with the Everglades"? No, I didn't. Like epiphyte, you need to be sure of what something actually is before you can begin to decide whether you agree or disagree. Carefully go back over everything I've posted, think about it a while and then decide where you stand on the issues brought up.

Actually post #11 sums up your thoughts and the fact that your postings are in response to a thread headed up "A different way to Protect The Ghost Orchid ".
You said what I quoted in response to my previous posting. By mentioning the Everglades, if you weren't referencing the Ghost Orchid, exactly what were you referencing ?

[epiphyte78]

Originally Posted by Dillon123

Hey carlos, can you tell me more about the laboratory in jamaica about hybridization of den. lindenii and funalis because I havent heard of it before.

It's not surprising that you haven't heard of it...because it doesn't exist. Somehow I mistakenly believed that lindenii's distribution range included Jamaica. orchidsarefun noted that, if lindenii and funalis were both in Jamaica, then their co-occurrence would create a natural "laboratory" where we could study whether or not any natural hybridization has occurred. But I was wrong. The Ghost Orchid's distribution is limited to Florida, the Bahamas and Cuba. Although it's entirely possible that it's now extinct in Cuba.

If you ever get a chance to observe funalis in nature, I'd definitely love to hear your description of its habitat. The more details and zoomed out photos the better.

Originally Posted by gnathaniel

...not terribly well-thought-out ideas...

shenanigans!


My ideas are actually very wonderfully thought out. The problem is when it comes to articulating them. Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that gets lost in translation.


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To everybody who's found fault with herclivation...here's a super friendly suggestion. Go...start a blog. Use it to share your own theoretical approach to protecting the Ghost Orchid.

You should do this even if you think the current approach is beyond reproach. The blog entry would allow you to share the mountain of information that leads you to your conclusion. Making this valuable information more widely available would certainly help generate interest in the conservation of orchids.

Hmmm...but maybe some of my many critics need a carrot..or a stick?

A carrot? We could have a contest perhaps? Maybe have some nurseries sponsor it. The winner could be decided by popular vote...and/or by expert vote. Maybe a panel of experts could pick which approach had the most merit.

A stick? Well...here's what J.S. Mill observed long ago...

They will not indeed submit to more labours and privations than other people, for the relief of distressed fellow creatures: but they make amends by whining over them more. It is not difficult to trace this sort of affectation to its cause. It originates in the common practice of bestowing upon feelings that praise which actions alone can deserve.

Is starting a blog a huge action? No, it's a very small action. It's ridiculously easy and completely free. If you have a gmail account then you can use it for Google's blogging platform. If signing in is too much effort then you can just use the blog feature that this forum provides you with. So you wouldn't even have to come up with a name for your blog. The only thing that you'd have to do is articulate what you think should be done to help protect the Ghost Orchid for future generations. That's super easy...right! The only reason that I've failed so miserably at it is because I fell asleep during high school biology.

If you're not willing to make such a small sacrifice in order to try and help provide relief for your distressed fellow creature the Ghost Orchid...then perhaps your concern is not at all genuine or sincere.

But I'm sure that nobody needs a carrot or a stick...right? I'm sure that we are all genuinely and sincerely concerned with protecting the wonderfully diverse orchid family. So I really look forward to reading and learning from all my critics' blog entries. And it's not like there could ever be too many orchid blogs. Just like there couldn't ever be too many Ghost Orchids.

Oh, and I've done some more digging. Turns out that there's quite a bit of material on the topic of processes vs patterns. As far as I can tell...the pattern approach is the traditional approach. It's an attempt to save a "snapshot" of biodiversity. The process approach, on the other hand, is more focused on identifying and saving the causes of biodiversity.

I'm terrible at analogies but...maybe it's kinda like getting in a car and taking a road trip. Getting out of the car and taking a picture of the scenery would be the pattern approach. With the process approach, you'd get out of the car and look under the hood and check the tires.

Anybody like to offer a better analogy?

The two approaches aren't mutually exclusive per se...but they can be because resources are limited. Probably the most limited resource is time.

Unfortunately, the relevant material isn't the easiest to find because it doesn't have a search friendly label like "herclivation". But searching Google scholar for "evolutionary processes conservation" yields some relevant results.

Only a few of these studies with emphasis on the process based approach have been on orchids and even fewer of them have been on epiphytic orchids. As of yet I haven't found any on the Ghost Orchid.

Maybe right now there's a group of scientists writing a paper that details a process based plan to protect Dendrophylax? And maybe there isn't.

As it stands, until proven otherwise, I've written the best process based plan to protect Dendrophylax. And as many of you have pointed out...I've set the bar really low. So it should be really easy for you to raise it!

[Subrosa]

I was comparing the ecological value of the Everglades to the ecological value of a few pieces of suburban sprawl which were redisturbed in such a manner as to create a new, artificial niche. My assessment is that it's foolhardy to introduce any species or hybrid into the Everglades, but considering the specific species and the specific areas involved, even a worst case scenario in my project is an insignificant blip ecologically speaking because the habitat I'm altering is pretty much screwed already. What is your assessment of the relative values of the Everglades vs suburban drainage ditches?

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

I was comparing the ecological value of the Everglades to the ecological value of a few pieces of suburban sprawl which were redisturbed in such a manner as to create a new, artificial niche. My assessment is that it's foolhardy to introduce any species or hybrid into the Everglades, but considering the specific species and the specific areas involved, even a worst case scenario in my project is an insignificant blip ecologically speaking because the habitat I'm altering is pretty much screwed already. What is your assessment of the relative values of the Everglades vs suburban drainage ditches?

a classic straw man argument.
The thread is about possibly hybridising the Ghost Orchid and introducing this hybrid as a better adaptation to the Everglades changing environment. My assessment of that is that it would have to be the subject of a 'decades-long' study. I haven't said whether its a good idea or not, merely pointed out various inconsistencies in the knee-jerk reaction ( of some people ) to the proposal. Again - if this hybrid was discovered in the Everglades, named a newly discovered species and did complement the existing species by not displacing, would everybody be cheering ?

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Again - if this hybrid was discovered in the Everglades, named a newly discovered species and did complement the existing species by not displacing, would everybody be cheering ?

Hasn't happened and won't happen. So who cares?

Having a scientifically illiterate and unethical hybridizer create a new hybrid and releasing it into the wild is completely different than finding a naturally made hybrid. Your argument is irrelevant and I agree; you're diverting from the main issue.