Norman's Orchids/Orchids.com sent beautiful phals

[MrHappyRotter]

Originally Posted by TomThumb

MrHappyRotter,

Would you mind telling me your experience?

The whole experience was a fiasco, there was hardly any part of it that wasn't unsatisfactory. It was so bad in so many ways, I'm not even sure I'll touch on everything that went wrong or was an issue -- honestly it was that bad.

Major Issues

1. Misidentified / mislabeled plant - The whole reason I placed the order was because it's the only US retailer I've found that had a plant I've been seriously and actively seeking for at least 5 years. When the plant arrived, it was clearly and undeniably mislabeled, and it was one of those cases where, based solely on the foliage, you could absolutely determine it was not accurately labeled. Still, it took over a month of multiple phone calls and round after round of emails to resolve, and I even had to involve a 3rd party vendor to confirm the misidentification. When they finally agreed to refund the money, I had to pay out of pocket to ship the plant back, and they never properly compensated me for that added expense. To top it off, they still list the cross on their website, knowing for a fact, that what they are selling is misidentified. That, to me, seems like fraud.

2. Suspected misidentified / mislabeled plant - Aside from the plant I mentioned above which was the primary reason for the order, I decided to purchase 2 additional orchids. One of those extra orchids was seemingly a good value given the size of the plant and the parentage. I also do not believe that this plant is correctly labeled, though the foliage isn't as conclusive as the previously mentioned plant, so I can only wait for it to bloom before I have confirmation. I'm certain that Norman's won't provide any recourse here so I've just written the plant off as a loss and I can only hope I'm wrong no matter how unlikely that is in this case. It was also in questionable health when it arrived, though fortunately it has begun to recover as of late.

General Complaints

1. Order fulfillment time - This was one of the more minor inconveniences, but there was (IIRC) a week or more of lag from the time I placed the order before it was fulfilled. This is more excusable for a small-time operation or hobbyist grower, but you generally expect a professional, commercial operation to be a little more responsive, especially given the shipping & handling rates.

2. General policy - After you open the box of plants, you see they provide a disclaimer that says you're not allowed to repot the plants for 30 days (I forget the exact amount of time), otherwise it voids the return/warranty. Repotting the plants upon arrival is my way of ensuring that the roots are in good shape and that there are no animal hitchhikers. While I can understand they don't want novice growers repotting plants that are in bloom and then trying to get a refund when the flowers drop, having a blanket policy that even applies to out-of-bloom plants comes across as a way to dissuade people from noticing major issues until after the refund warranty period is over (i.e a scam). Imagine buying a car and after the loan/check is signed they tell you that you can't take it to a mechanic to inspect the engine or they'll void the warranty and if you want to bring it back within the return period you have to pay them 25% to take it back.

3. No guarantee on in-spike/bloom plants - I bought a third plant in-bloom, expecting to be able to enjoy it for awhile, but it turned out it was at the very end of its bloom period. The flowers were faded/fading upon arrival and were not fragrant as advertised. Most places excuse themselves of any liability/guarantee in this situation, so I can over look it, but it still reflects poorly since ideally they'd keep the website up-to-date and if the flowers are fading or near the end of their lifespan, it seems reasonable that a vendor would update the status in the catalog or at least contact the buyer in the week+ of time between when the order is placed and when it is finally fulfilled.

4. Professionalism - As pretty much everybody that's ever had issues with these folks mentions, their customer service is atrocious. Some of the employees are downright rude and dismissive (it's not all of them, so I'm sorry to those employees who are courteous and helpful), even when you're nice and polite with them. It takes several days or more to get any response from them via email and even phone calls don't normally get much of a response unless you're calling to make a purchase because the person or persons who can help are seemingly never around. In the course of trying to resolve the issues I had with my order, I ended up dealing with 4 different email addresses from 3 different domains some from what appeared to be personal email accounts -- that just seems fishy. And they are extremely reluctant to rectify any issues with the order, even issues that are entirely their fault.

Overall

So overall, I ended up with 2 plants that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise, one of which I'm 90+ percent sure is misidentified and was in questionable condition upon arrival. In addition, I had to spend quite a bit of my time to beg for a refund and use my own money to ship back a plant because they mistakenly (or otherwise) sent one that was mislabeled.

I will say that Norman himself was polite with me over email, and that the "probably shouldn't have been advertised as in-spike" plant has since rebloomed and I am happy with it even if I wouldn't have purchased it otherwise. However, in all the years I've been in the hobby, I've never had such a bad experience with an orchid vendor. The experience was leaps and bounds worse than Seattle Orchid, and that's saying something.

[TomThumb]

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

The whole experience was a fiasco, there was hardly any part of it that wasn't unsatisfactory. It was so bad in so many ways, I'm not even sure I'll touch on everything that went wrong or was an issue -- honestly it was that bad.

Major Issues

1. Misidentified / mislabeled plant - The whole reason I placed the order was because it's the only US retailer I've found that had a plant I've been seriously and actively seeking for at least 5 years. When the plant arrived, it was clearly and undeniably mislabeled, and it was one of those cases where, based solely on the foliage, you could absolutely determine it was not accurately labeled. Still, it took over a month of multiple phone calls and round after round of emails to resolve, and I even had to involve a 3rd party vendor to confirm the misidentification. When they finally agreed to refund the money, I had to pay out of pocket to ship the plant back, and they never properly compensated me for that added expense. To top it off, they still list the cross on their website, knowing for a fact, that what they are selling is misidentified. That, to me, seems like fraud.

2. Suspected misidentified / mislabeled plant - Aside from the plant I mentioned above which was the primary reason for the order, I decided to purchase 2 additional orchids. One of those extra orchids was seemingly a good value given the size of the plant and the parentage. I also do not believe that this plant is correctly labeled, though the foliage isn't as conclusive as the previously mentioned plant, so I can only wait for it to bloom before I have confirmation. I'm certain that Norman's won't provide any recourse here so I've just written the plant off as a loss and I can only hope I'm wrong no matter how unlikely that is in this case. It was also in questionable health when it arrived, though fortunately it has begun to recover as of late.

Wow. That's really disappointing. I can't believe they didn't foot the cost of the return since it was their fault. It could be that they actually did have the correct plant and sent out the wrong one but did not want to be responsible for any extra shipping fees to return or to send out the correct one so they just denied the mistake. I woudlnt be surprised if that were the case at all considering their lack of professionalism.

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

General Complaints

1. Order fulfillment time - This was one of the more minor inconveniences, but there was (IIRC) a week or more of lag from the time I placed the order before it was fulfilled. This is more excusable for a small-time operation or hobbyist grower, but you generally expect a professional, commercial operation to be a little more responsive, especially given the shipping & handling rates.

They might have a new system in place now. When i ordered they have the customer select a delivery date and indeed my package was delivered on the date i selected. Of course i selected a date that was about 10 days away from my order date since i wanted to make sure i had pots ready and waiting. Perhaps if i had selected a more pressing date they would have had trouble fulfilling my order and not notify me that it was late or etc. Since it is colder now on the east coast of the U.S. i also checked the weather to select a warmer date for my incoming order. Hopefully they dont miss the date and send it on a rainy day -____-.

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

2. General policy - After you open the box of plants, you see they provide a disclaimer that says you're not allowed to repot the plants for 30 days (I forget the exact amount of time), otherwise it voids the return/warranty. Repotting the plants upon arrival is my way of ensuring that the roots are in good shape and that there are no animal hitchhikers. While I can understand they don't want novice growers repotting plants that are in bloom and then trying to get a refund when the flowers drop, having a blanket policy that even applies to out-of-bloom plants comes across as a way to dissuade people from noticing major issues until after the refund warranty period is over (i.e a scam). Imagine buying a car and after the loan/check is signed they tell you that you can't take it to a mechanic to inspect the engine or they'll void the warranty and if you want to bring it back within the return period you have to pay them 25% to take it back.

Yeah, i agree that this policy is not in the customer's best interest. I also saw this on their invoice and repotted anyway. I was lucky that i didnt have any actively rotting roots although one plant lost half it's roots due to being soaked in wet compacted sphag. I dind't have to cut them off. they just fell off. I know that sphag is supposed to be good if used correctly but i have yet to receive an orchid packed in sphag that wasn't packed super tight without any air space. I definitely had some unhappy roots but they are fine after the repot.

Norman's is at least using clear soft plastic containers for their plants so you can see the the roots pressed against the sides but you can't see the roots at the center which were the ones that suffered the most. Still this means at least that you can see if the plant has enough good roots to survive before unpotting.

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

3. No guarantee on in-spike/bloom plants - I bought a third plant in-bloom, expecting to be able to enjoy it for awhile, but it turned out it was at the very end of its bloom period. The flowers were faded/fading upon arrival and were not fragrant as advertised. Most places excuse themselves of any liability/guarantee in this situation, so I can over look it, but it still reflects poorly since ideally they'd keep the website up-to-date and if the flowers are fading or near the end of their lifespan, it seems reasonable that a vendor would update the status in the catalog or at least contact the buyer in the week+ of time between when the order is placed and when it is finally fulfilled.

I do think this happened because they got too large and don't necessarily hire people who care about plants or have plants. As a result to these workers if a plant has a spike it has a spike. It doesnt matter to them what collectors/hobbyists care about.

As for my in spike/ in bloom plants, the in spike plant actually really was newly in spike. The first bud is barely there right now. And my blooming phal has four blooms opened and four buds on arrival. The fifth bloom opened the day after it arrived. Perhaps they are more conscientious now and trained their employees better after the situation with you and other's like it?

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

4. Professionalism - As pretty much everybody that's ever had issues with these folks mentions, their customer service is atrocious. Some of the employees are downright rude and dismissive (it's not all of them, so I'm sorry to those employees who are courteous and helpful), even when you're nice and polite with them. It takes several days or more to get any response from them via email and even phone calls don't normally get much of a response unless you're calling to make a purchase because the person or persons who can help are seemingly never around. In the course of trying to resolve the issues I had with my order, I ended up dealing with 4 different email addresses from 3 different domains some from what appeared to be personal email accounts -- that just seems fishy. And they are extremely reluctant to rectify any issues with the order, even issues that are entirely their fault.

THIS.

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

Overall

So overall, I ended up with 2 plants that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise, one of which I'm 90+ percent sure is misidentified and was in questionable condition upon arrival. In addition, I had to spend quite a bit of my time to beg for a refund and use my own money to ship back a plant because they mistakenly (or otherwise) sent one that was mislabeled.

I will say that Norman himself was polite with me over email, and that the "probably shouldn't have been advertised as in-spike" plant has since rebloomed and I am happy with it even if I wouldn't have purchased it otherwise. However, in all the years I've been in the hobby, I've never had such a bad experience with an orchid vendor. The experience was leaps and bounds worse than Seattle Orchid, and that's saying something.

I think it really is hit or miss. I held out ordering the schills from them for about a week or two. I was searching other sites and thinking about it but i really wanted them so i decided to bite the bullet and order.

Norman's also has more extensive info on their listings than many other vendors which is helpful when you're looking specifically for a large blooming fuschia/purple phal. (present for my mom who complained that the other one i ordered for her was too small.) I think for me this is one of the selling points as I like to know where my orchid is from instead of knowing it as just another generic phal schilleriana or what have you.

I'm really hoping they're taking small steps to improvements. I will update when my next order comes in. I will be kicking myself if/when i receive a sick orchid. And if they're all healthy i will be estatic.

(BTW i just received an order of a rhy. gigantea in horrible condition from a reportedly good vendor so who knows. This rhy. has extensive scarring on it's second oldest leaf and oddly enough it's oldest leaf is larger than it's subsequent leaves. There;s also some stem below this large leaf so that leads me to believe this was a stem propagation(?) and it did not do too well. Either way the plant arrived with all it's roots dead and one tiny nubbin of a new root poking out. It might also have rot or some other disease as it's leaves are spotted. However i haven't found any bad reviews on this vendor?! Admittedly they are quite cheap in comparison to places like orchidweb or norman's for the same plant but this was still very disappointing. It was cheap for what it was but it wasn't free.)

[Roberta]

For what it's worth, Norman is starting to participate in shows - he stopped doing that nearly 10 years ago, and is just now getting back into it (and is doing them personally, not sending representatives). So you happen to see him at a show, do give him your feedback personally, that may help because he does have some very good plants. I have not done mail order from him in many years, I'm just not into hybrid Phals these days and have found more Phal species than I have room for at shows from various vendors, so I can't speak to service levels based on experience. (I did see him at a show recently, and the schills were outstanding...one did follow me home)

[TomThumb]

So I have received a total of three orders from Norman's (yes I have a problem) and I can only say I think they really are trying to improve.

1. Timely arrival -- At checkout customers choose their delivery date. So far all three orders I've made came well packaged on the chosen date. They even placed an extra sticker on my package with my delivery instructions.

2. I think after complaints from customers they no longer have a policy that negates a refund if you depot your orchids before 30 days. However they do have a know that advises you to wait 30 days.

3. All my plants appear to be the correct plant although we don't know for sure until they bloom. I can make an easy assessment on the phals since I'm most familiar with them. Two of my orders were phals only and one was mixed containing my first cattleyas and sensations ever!

I will review my phals here first.

First order of schillerianas and one random phal all arrived in good to great condition. The in bloom plant was indeed half in bloom with half closed buds and my in spike plant was just spiking.

Second order of phals was kind of a mixed bag from eh...could have been taken care of better but still healthy plants to very healthy. In spike plant was actually in bloom with one bud still closed. I'm not bothered by it. Two of the orchids were older plants with their necks buried in sphag. I'm unsure why but I'm guessing it makes the plant look nicer even though the neck is rotting away. Neither was doing badly and had plenty of healthy roots along with dead rotted roots. One is sending out a new one inch spike.

Third order contained a terrestrial, my first cattleya and my first dendrobiums. I know I shouldn't disturb the roots until early spring but the two dendrobiums are still sending out new growths and the cattleya will be upset either way.

The dens. Seem fine. The roots were dry but did not appear sick or damaged. Overall plant appears healthy except for a dark spot here or there on the leaves but I will wait to see if these are anything to worry about.

The cattleya....had a lot of cut roots. It looks like they just took a knife and cut through the roots and medium without looking. I think this is because they are propagating by division. However this meant a lot of dead roots to remove. The plant looks healthy? But time will tell.


4. Timely email response - One issue with the second order was that one orchid was missing from the order. However a quick email was sent and an hour later I get a reply that it will be sent out.



Honestly I had a horrible time on the phone with them and got no response to my email the first time I tried and failed to order from them. I really think the service is due to luck in encountering a helpful employee. However all the plants I've received have been in decent to great condition. I would like to think that part of their issues was due to growing pains but maybe they're finally catching up to demand?

[TomThumb]

Some photos from my order

[aliceinwl]

I just bought 5 Phals from them. All of the plants were at the lower end of the price range. Mine arrived on time in great condition. Spikes and flowers were undamaged. The labels match what I ordered but I’ll have to wait for them to bloom to know for sure. They were in really wet moss but the roots I can see through the plastic are many and healthy. I’ll probably repot sooner rather than later since moss is difficult for me.

[Ray]

A caveat that should be heeded by ALL buyers with ALL vendors: Pay with a credit card!

The vendor is obliged to sell you what has been described, and to make it right if there is an issue.

Making you wait to repot, or pay to return a defective or incorrect plant is BS. In such a circumstance, you should contact them in an effort to get the issue resolved to YOUR satisfaction in a timely manner. If it is not, contact the credit card issuer immediately and explain the problem. They will freeze the vendor's funds for the order and require them to resolve it. If they do not (and charging you to return it is NOT acceptable), they'll never get paid and will get a chargeback fee slapped on them besides, and you will not have to pay a penny.

It usually only takes one or two of those for a crappy vendor to straighten out.

In the 25 years I've been in business, if I messed up with a plant order, whether that be the customer interpreting my description differently than I, I shipped the wrong plant, or the plant suffered in shipment, my very first course of action was to apologize and replace the plant or refund the money, and then (if applicable) try to help them nurse it back to life. Fortunately, that probably didn't happen more than a half-dozen times in all of that time.

Oh - by the way, the fact that plants are coming to you in those soft, vinyl pots means they are being shipped to you just as they came in from Taiwan.

[stonedragonfarms]

Interesting thread; I've often wondered what would happen if one requested that plants from Norman's be sent out bare root...

[TomThumb]

Interesting to know that these plants come straight from Taiwan in the soft plastic pots. The younger plants i've received are very happy in them and the older ones with a ton of roots seem ok if a bit waterlogged and squished because there's only one drainage hole at the bottom and the sphag gets compacted so there's nowhere for the moisture to go.

The older plants are healthy but as i mentioned i had two quite mature and old phals with their necks buried 3-5 inches into sphag and while they were ok, the buried necks were starting to soften and rot. They were also in clear soft plastic containers but i'm not sure if they came from Taiwan that way or if they've been sitting at Norman's for a while.

THey no longer have the policy where you cannot return a plant if you have unpotted it. They now recommend that you wait 30days to repot but to me it's faulty advice since some of these plants have been swimming in water and have some rot starting on otherwise healthy roots. (note the photo i have above with the two clumps of black rot on healthy green plump roots.)

The other bit of advice they give that i do not agree with is that you should thoroughly water your plant the next morning. Most of the plants i received were drenched in compacted sphag with no access to air other than the top of the pot and the 1/2" hole at the bottom of the pot. If i didn't repot them right away i would not water them until that sphag is almost or completely dry. If you have a young seedling most likely the sphag is new and not broken down at all but if you have an older plant that has been sitting around for a while, you can be sure to encounter old broken down sphag. One of mine had the most disgusting slab of grey slime buried in the pot. I don't even know if it used to be sphag. I didnt want to look too closely. The plant was fine but it definitely should not stay any longer than it needed to in that soft plastic pot.

Originally Posted by Ray

A caveat that should be heeded by ALL buyers with ALL vendors: Pay with a credit card!

The vendor is obliged to sell you what has been described, and to make it right if there is an issue.

Making you wait to repot, or pay to return a defective or incorrect plant is BS. In such a circumstance, you should contact them in an effort to get the issue resolved to YOUR satisfaction in a timely manner. If it is not, contact the credit card issuer immediately and explain the problem. They will freeze the vendor's funds for the order and require them to resolve it. If they do not (and charging you to return it is NOT acceptable), they'll never get paid and will get a chargeback fee slapped on them besides, and you will not have to pay a penny.

It usually only takes one or two of those for a crappy vendor to straighten out.


Oh - by the way, the fact that plants are coming to you in those soft, vinyl pots means they are being shipped to you just as they came in from Taiwan.

---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

Interesting thread; I've often wondered what would happen if one requested that plants from Norman's be sent out bare root...

Honestly, i doubt they would include it as an option. I don't believe they have enough ppl qualified to handle the orchids delicately. Some of these plants come easily out of the sphag but some of them require a bit of time due to the abundance of roots. I would only request barerooted phals or vanda types with thick roots that are easier to clean off but even then it took a good 30-45 minutes to clean off the roots of one of the older phals.

Some vendors have a choice that lets you choose to receive your orchid mounted instead of potted for a nominal fee. I suspect if you asked those companies to send your orchids bare rooted, they would be happy to oblige (perhaps with a small fee) as they are already set up to unpot the plant.

As an aside, my terrestrial that prefers to be dry did come in almost dry sphag (not crunchy but only slightly soft) compared to my drenched phals. One of the dens. was pretty wet with green roots in the pot (it's still sprouting new growth) but the other one (no new growths right now) was in moist but not dry sphag. So i do think that they ahve these plants on different watering schedules depending on the type or what the plant is doing? (going into winter mode or not)

[Optimist]

Since there are many orchid vendors, and since I had horrible experiences with Normans Orchids, I will not buy from them again.

I want to reiterate that it is the staff, their customer service that is horrible. The plants are fine. Actually in some cases the plants are very good.

My problem was similar to Mr. Happyrotter's. They sent me a plant that had a "Plant Number" that was very similar to the one I had ordered. It was also a cheaper plant. So in other words, instead of MN1234, it was MH1234. Since this seems to occur a lot, they should change number systems.

When I pointed out this error and asked for the plant I had ordered, they became defensive, and it took me about 3 months. They did not even tell me, but one day, I got an unexpected package, and it was the plant that I had wanted. (Like Mr. HR, it was a plant that I had been unable to find anywhere else, and it was one that was on my wishlist for ages).

I was quite unhappy about this. I also felt guilty because I now had the "spare" plant, which was nice but not what I wanted. So what to do? I felt that they expected me to just shut up, stop causing a fuss, and accept what they had given me. If I was less of an assertive person I may have done that.

If Norman fired everyone answering the phone, and got new workers, he'd have a good operation. I am guessing they are his family though.

That is a horrible way to talk about a business, but If I ran a business and heard my employees were sullen, argumentative, and got orders wrong left and right, they would have to clean up or get out fast.