Norman's orchids...Bad experience

[Gthumbz89]

I had received good phalaenopsis from orchids.com before so I assumed they knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, I was very wrong. When I ordered cattleyas from them I received plants which were potted in dense sphagenum moss which had almost no live roots.

The plants have slightly recovered and have grown some new roots, but they look terrible. Their leaves are shriveled and leathery, and the bulbs are gaunt. I don't expect to see normal sized growths anytime soon let alone blooms

If you want cattleyas from them...be advised that you may have to play nurse and fight to revive them from the brink of death.

[u bada]

There's another post where they're mentioned where I added some of my experience...

Coincidently me and friend went to visit them and we were there just last week.

I got some stuff as they were plants that were hard to find anwhere (it was funny they even had these) and others just because they looked pretty good and price weren't, well, terrible... I did notice they the plants were in sphag, although one was in bark. One in particular the sphag was terribly packed in and very very broken down, and very bad quality sphag.

Coincidently I was just unpotting that one today. the roots were surprisingly green in the stuff although not great, but very hard to remove the sphag... so in doing so injured some roots... I'll be mounting it on something just have to figure out it... but regardless I'm not expecting flowers for a couple years... the other one's blooming in the stuff, so I'm afraid to unpot but it may not be able to wait...

on another note, it always surprises me how many vendors grow things like catts and vandas in sphag moss... it really baffles me. I know to each their own, but even phals have way better root systems when I grow them in bark mixes, and I'm not an overwaterer either...

[Optimist]

This is sad because I had been considering getting some orchids from Normans, but decided on another vendor for different reasons.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by u bada

on another note, it always surprises me how many vendors grow things like catts and vandas in sphag moss... it really baffles me. I know to each their own, but even phals have way better root systems when I grow them in bark mixes, and I'm not an overwaterer either...

I think you will find that commercial grower's use of sphagnum is different from the typical hobbyist.

For one, it's really easy to use when potting up lots of plants, so saves them time (and money) doing so.

Secondly, you'll note it tends to be very tightly packed. That is something I have always mentally struggled with, as well, but a large-scale grower in Hawaii pointed out that it actually holds less water than does loose sphagnum - think of a sponge that is being squeezed, versus one just sitting there full of water. As the suffocating effect of soppy sphagnum is due more to the water held between the strands than it is by the water held within the strands, reducing that appears to alleviate the potential issues, while still giving the grower more time between waterings, another cost-saving move.

However, we also have to consider that a well-run greenhouse in Hawaii or Taiwan has a far more "dynamic" environment than does a windowsill or even a hobby greenhouse, so that seemingly over-compressed, stifling medium, simply isn't.

[Fairorchids]

A. When shipping plants from Taiwan to the US, the only potting material allowed is pure spaghnum.

B. My dad (commercial orchid nursery) used a mix of spaghnum & bark for all orchids.

Spagnum mixes still have their place. I use them for all seedlings, all Dendrobiums, Cattleyas in clay pots smaller than 4" and all my Vandaceous plants (3-400 in net pots or baskets).

[u bada]

Thanks Kim and Ray... yes, I speculated that sphag may be cheaper, easier to deal and work with so it does make sense... and i also imagine that in a commercial growing area you want something that will hold moisture so you water less but also hold moisture for a longer amount of time...

I do wonder on how sustainable sphag is these days... I believe fir bark is probably of the most sustainable?

I did not know that about sphag being the only media allowed to ship, albeit just from taiwan... perhaps wood could carry disease? Also makes sense as Norman's appeared to be a chinese outfit, so they may definitely source material from taiwan...

I think many here could agree that getting plant material is really the goal and once you do, you'll end up having to repot into the best media for your conditions anway... but still better if you know you're getting a plant with good root systems.

Maybe that's a good thread to start, best vendors for plants with good root systems LOL

[Gthumbz89]

Originally Posted by u bada

There's another post where they're mentioned where I added some of my experience...

Coincidently me and friend went to visit them and we were there just last week.

I got some stuff as they were plants that were hard to find anwhere (it was funny they even had these) and others just because they looked pretty good and price weren't, well, terrible... I did notice they the plants were in sphag, although one was in bark. One in particular the sphag was terribly packed in and very very broken down, and very bad quality sphag.

Coincidently I was just unpotting that one today. the roots were surprisingly green in the stuff although not great, but very hard to remove the sphag... so in doing so injured some roots... I'll be mounting it on something just have to figure out it... but regardless I'm not expecting flowers for a couple years... the other one's blooming in the stuff, so I'm afraid to unpot but it may not be able to wait...

on another note, it always surprises me how many vendors grow things like catts and vandas in sphag moss... it really baffles me. I know to each their own, but even phals have way better root systems when I grow them in bark mixes, and I'm not an overwaterer either...

As far as the potting mix goes, it really does depend on the environment. I grow in Arizona which is very dry, so using layers of moss has been a life saver. However, even in this desert I wouldn't dare to pot entirely in moss. Unless I'm growing phals, miltoniopsis, or paphs anyways.

Yes, some of the plants were in better shape than others in the pots. None of them were good quality or strong enough to bloom off the next growth though.

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

Ray, it is interesting that you mentioned the fact that dense moss holds less water. The roots looked more desiccated than rotten because they were papery and hollow rather than black and mushy. It is still worth mentioning that there were still some clearly rotten ones too.

[estación seca]

I think live sphag can be very sustainable. The stuff grows astoundingly fast when conditions are correct. Peat is compressed, dead sphag or other plant material from the bottoms of bogs. That has to be mined and is not sustainable, since it takes many years for a thin layer to form.

[wintergirl]

I use live sphag all the time for some of my plants, it's wonderful. I bought some off of Ebay a couple years back and I have been growing it since.

[Orchid Whisperer]

I have 3 pots of live sphagnum growing. Two are the same, a coarser-growing southeast USA variety. The other spontaneously started growing in one of my pots. It is a smaller-growing slender sphagnum. I was thinking of using live sphagnum as a material for growing something like a Phragmipedium?