vendor Virus Policies

[Jmoney]

OK here goes. My experiences with various vendors who do vouch for their plants being virus-free versus those who do not. I am going to try to be as objective as I can here. I am only stating the truth. It's my truth, but honestly...it's the truth. Maybe others can add to this list.

For the record, I think virus testing is perhaps overkill for most growers. It is also likely impossible to keep a collection virus free, with the potential for false negatives on commonly-available test kits and the dozens of non CymMV/ORSV viruses that may or may not have a test platform at this time. I am still trying to keep my collection clean with testing. And yes, I am paranoid (just on this topic).

My take on selling plants with virus is this: for any seller catering to the serious orchid grower (i.e. not the big box stores or big nurseries with a few orchids sprinkled in), there ought to be a responsibility to sell virus-free plants. Would anyone here accept a plant that is infested with scale, snails, spider mites, mealies, or the like? Or a plant with no roots that is going to die? To me, virus is no different, just perhaps not as visible. And I do not expect every plant from a commercial grower to be virus-free, as it is not feasible to test on a large scale. I would just like some accountability. Sometimes you get it, sometimes not. I am particularly miffed by the growers who do not vouch for their plants and then have the nerve to say that nobody else would do such a thing (which is obviously not true). Excuses. Now I ask before I buy.


Vendors who will replace/refund virused plants:
(I have received virus plants from *some* of these vendors, others on this list have only sent me clean plants and have told me they will certify their plants as clean.) In no particular order.

Bredren Orchids, FL
Krull Smith, FL
Shogun, HI
Tim Culberton, CA (twculberton on ebay)
OV Orchids, CA (ovorchids on ebay)
Austin Creek, CA (orchid4u2006 on ebay)
Southwestern College, KS
Sentinel Orchids, PA
Fair Orchids, NJ


Vendors who will NOT replace virused plants:
Orchidphile, CT
Big Leaf, TX


I have purchased orchids from a lot more vendors, but the ones where I never asked for virus policy are not listed.

[katsucats]

It seems like many here are more protective of vendors, but I share the same values with regards to virus. A virused plant should be considered an unhealthy plant, regardless of how it looks on the outside. So in that spirit, let me add to your list of vendors who will refund you when they sell unhealthy plants and vendors who will not.

Vendors who will replace/refund virused plants:
Marlow's Orchids
Sunset Valley Orchids
Main Street Orchids
Rare Earth Orchids (but high virus rate in my experience)
Natt's Orchids
Bloomify/Orchid Gene (but high virus rate in my experience)
Exotic Orchids of Maui
chuchi109_7 on ebay
AWZ Orchids (Brazil)

Vendors who will give partial refund or require that you ship the plant back:
So Orchids (required shipping back, high virus rate)
orchidspecies33 on ebay (required shipping back, refunded 70%)
Hausermann (refunds 50%)
exoticorchidspr (required shipping back, owner denies test strips work)
Ecuagenera (refunds 80% after a lot of back and forth)

Vendors who will NOT replace virused plants:
Norman's (orchids dot com)
Pelican Coast Farms/Orchids Amore/Jerry Meola (high virus rate too, complete crooks considering the amount of presentations they give for AOS and orchid societies)
orchidnuts2015 on ebay
shermantp on ebay
maistorm on ebay
POM Orchids (Taiwanese wholesaler, guess it makes sense given the prices though)

Bonus, vendors that explicitly state they test before selling plants to you:
twculbertson on ebay (Tim Culbertson)
fmorchids on ebay (Frank Methmann)
4331steven on ebay (Steven Christopherson)
ovorchids on ebay (Outhay Viengkhou)

Strangely, all of these vendors that test are located in Southern California. Coincidence?

[Jmoney]

Thank you for the additions. I think it is only fair that a vendor's virus policy is public knowledge. I really think only a small minority of orchid growers test regularly...seems like vouching for your plants would be good business, but then again I'm not a businessman.

The names you list at the bottom all gravitate to vintage catts (I know Tim sells a lot more genera as well). It seems to me that virus testing is much more established in the classic cattleya community. I see so much more transparency in people who grow the heirloom catts (than, for example, the phal community, which seems like a real free for all). Of course, many of these catt aficionados do grow virused historic cultivars, and generally take precautions to prevent virus spread. If I had another small greenhouse/grow room, I would most likely dedicate that space as well to the virused historics...

[estación seca]

I think there are different markets. The vast majority of Phals. are regarded as throwaway flower arrangements, so mass growers only care about viruses affecting rapid growth and flower development. Ensuring they are virus free would increase the price, not something mass marketers want to do.

[Leafmite]

This is a good thread. Thank you. Maybe a nice compromise would be for all plant vendors to give the option of an add-on price for testing before shipping.

I do not test the orchids or other plants...I just toss whatever does not thrive for me and hope the rest are resistant. I grow too many other plants and live in an area that probably has virus everywhere (small town in the middle of many farms). I am not a serious grower--I just enjoy the flowers so....

[katsucats]

Originally Posted by Jmoney

The names you list at the bottom all gravitate to vintage catts (I know Tim sells a lot more genera as well). It seems to me that virus testing is much more established in the classic cattleya community.

That's a good point. It might be true that virus testing is more prevalent in the Cattleya community, but in my experience it's still a minority. For instance, most of the other vendors that sell Catts don't test, even if they accept returns.

As for Phalaenopsis being largely for flower arrangements, that's what I thought before learning about the Taiwanese Phal industry. Browsing the numerous vendors on Big Leaf's website (e.g. Mainshow, Jia Ho, Zheng Min, Wilson, Mituo, SWR, CTL, etc.), I find that the average price for Phalaenopsis complex hybrids easily exceed that of Cattleya and sell better too. These orchids easily start at around 75, flasks 160, twice the going rate of Catts for smaller plants. They are in no way throwaway.

Anyways whether there's anything to it or not or just a coincidence, it's an observation. I find that some of the most trustworthy vendors operate out of this area as opposed to e.g. Florida or Texas. But then again some of the worst also do (like Norman). Probably some kind of cognitive bias or placebo effect? Who knows...

I had a conversation with James Rose and I think we agreed that it's time to move on from faulty genetics of virused historics (because the virus in inextricably linked, you can't separate them from the genetics) and breed new lines. As long as the species exist in the wild, great plants can still be found in the gene pool. Breeders might have been able to create improved plants already if the market wasn't so focused on historic cultivars.

[minicoerulea]

Great thread. I have recently begun testing each orchid I buy, and discarding those that test positive (after having cleared the positives out of my existing collection).

Originally Posted by Leafmite

I grow too many other plants and live in an area that probably has virus everywhere (small town in the middle of many farms).

This paper notes only three non-orchid carriers of CymMV: a Chinese conifer, an Australian tobacco used widely as a model organism (and which can also carry ORSV), and jimsonweed (which isn't often tolerated by farmers as it is toxic to livestock). So at least those two viruses -- the most troublesome ones -- aren't at all likely to be in most local environments (yet).

Personally, I think orchid keepers would do well to not tolerate viruses in their collections, at least to reduce the risk of transmitting exotic pathogens to wild populations. The fungal pathogens that are wiping out wild amphibian populations are spread to no small extent by hobby keepers (many salamander species are banned from import to the US because of one such pathogen; frogs are already something of a lost cause); if anyone wants to consider the potential of spreading orchid viruses, that situation would be an interesting one to research.

[Jmoney]

Leafmite, nothing wrong with your approach in my opinion. Virus testing, along with the expense and headache, is not something I would advocate for all growers. It may be somewhat of an exercise in futility anyway, with all the other viruses out there...

estacion, for phals I'm referencing the high-end novelty stem prop market. If I bought a 25 dollar seedling or mericlone, I wouldn't be as miffed if it were virused. I'm talking about stem props that run 60-70 up to 125 (or more), things that might be useful in breeding new novelty phals. That is when I get really annoyed, as I would expect more people to be careful about virus with plants this 'valuable' and clearly that is not the case. And the scary thing is that of the 6 or so phals that tested positive for me over the past few years, not a single one showed any symptoms. I don't blame the vendor for selling healthy-looking plants, but I do blame them for refusing to acknowledge that a customer just paid them good money for a 'defective' plant. At best you just toss the plant, or isolate it. At worst that plant can potentially infect your other orchids.

katsucats, I think most cattleya growers who keep historic virused cultivars do so more for the history, and not so much for breeding. I believe virused plants can be used quite successfully as the pod parent (with dry seed), and I am also told from reliable sources that virused plants can also be the pollen parent and produce unvirused seedlings (as long as only the pollinia is used, and not the stipe or column). That being said, I personally would shy away from putting pollen from a virused plant onto a clean plant...but I am currently contemplating making a red phal cross using clean pollen onto a nice but virused plant.

[Ray]

I may be totally wrong about this, but I think it's a bit naive to think one's collection is virus-free.

Passing a test means the viral loading was below the detection limits of the test, not that there are no viruses present. Sort of like the HIV med ads that claim they keep you "undetectable".

I am a firm believer that plants carry every virus to which they have ever been exposed, but - just like us - if we are kept otherwise healthy, thew don't rear their ugly heads.

If you had chicken pox, you are carrying the Varicella zoster virus, but may never get shingles (good for you if you don't), while others do. In retrospect, it seems likely that my body fighting the early stages of cancer made my immune system unable to keep shingles at bay.

[estación seca]

Does tobacco mosaic virus cause common orchid test strips to react? TMV has been reported to infect many orchids. Do orchid retailers prevent smokers from entering? All smoking tobacco, and the hands of smokers, contain infective TMV. Host plants for TMV are ubiquitous in temperate zones and anywhere people garden. Jimson weed (Datura) species are ubiquitous in temperate zones.