Online Storefront Orders vs. Group Sales and Auctions

[mopwr]

So, this isn't (particularly) targeted at any specific orchid vendor right now, but just - in general - the practice of vendors selecting their best plants for private sale / auction.

It's potentially a moot point for unflowered seedlings and selected clones, but for anything blooming / previously bloomed where there is room for any variation - based on what I'm seeing - you're basically guaranteed not to get top form or color. I've joined some of "private groups" from certain sellers where they showcase plants that have flowered with great quality flowers and mark them up double or more over the list price on their site. So in following that logic, anything good would get sold off "as premium / special access" and anything purchased directly from the website would absolutely have to qualify as leftovers.

I'm a bit annoyed as I bought a previously flowered plant a few months ago, that's now finally in bud, and, previously, I was hoping for a really solid bloom.... now I'm betting that it'll be mediocre at best because they sell flowering plants of the caliber I was expecting for a fair margin over what I paid.

Is this common or is the vendor from the example above the exception instead of the rule? I've seen at least two vendors operating in a similar fashion in this regard, one is a little more upfront about the implications than the other.

[estación seca]

I'm a little unclear on what you're getting at. I would expect better plants would sell for more money. If you want to take a chance on something unflowered, you can buy those. When a dealer of seedlings releases them to the public, most are unflowered. That is the time to take a chance.

[Shadeflower]

I don't know about other places but I'd say its fairly common in my experience, some places hide it better than others.
It makes sense, you have to make friends to get hold of top quality otherwise you are stuck with what's left.

That does not mean whats left will be less good, it depends how many the shop has in stock and how uniform the orchid characteristics are.

It certainly helps to buy more than 1. Even amongst seedlings a few stand out, a few are average and a few are strugglers that probably never turn into much good. If you buy multiple identical orchids there is good chance there will be some difference, I bought 5 phal seedlings last year, 1 died, 2 developed spider mites and 2 are perfect with one having flowered.

Now if I had just bought 1 I coud have ended up with the one that died! Or I could have gotten 1 with spider mites but I could have also gotten a good one. It's a bit of a gamble when buying without seeing the plant first.

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by mopwr

I'm a bit annoyed as I bought a previously flowered plant a few months ago, that's now finally in bud, and, previously, I was hoping for a really solid bloom.... now I'm betting that it'll be mediocre at best because they sell flowering plants of the caliber I was expecting for a fair margin over what I paid.

"Good" is highly qualitative and variable... Now, a division of a wonderful awarded plant is going to fetch a premium price. No surprise there. Likewise, a mature plant with a "track record" will also fetch a premium price. Why shouldn't it? If you get unbloomed seedlings, it's a bit of a crapshoot, plants will be cheaper, you might get something worthy of award, or possibly something not so good... especially from a seed cross, each plant is an adventure because how the genetics manifest themselves will be unknown until the plant blooms. Part of the adventure... There are plenty of stories of people buying an outstanding plant in bloom, immediately submitting it for judging, and getting an award. Legal though IMHO not particularly ethical. (For the American Orchid Society, flower quality awards go with the plant regardless of who got it to that point, cultural awards go specifically to the grower. Other judging systems may have different rules) But, then, is the purpose of an orchid collection to collect as many awards as possible? For some people, maybe. Personally, I vote for "adventure" but that's just me.

Like art... you can (if you have sufficient funds) buy a verified genuine Picasso painting for a very large sum of money, and it will probably be worth more in the future. Or, you could visit the studios of artists or purchase at art fairs, buy works that you personally like, from people who have not yet made a big name for themselves...you might end up with an up-and-coming artist who is the next Picasso, or more likely not. If it is something that you like and want to live with, does it matter? But then, again that's me...I don't buy art as an investment, I buy what I like. If it turns out to be worth something significant later, great, but won't break my heart if not.

[mopwr]

Originally Posted by estación seca

I'm a little unclear on what you're getting at. I would expect better plants would sell for more money. If you want to take a chance on something unflowered, you can buy those. When a dealer of seedlings releases them to the public, most are unflowered. That is the time to take a chance.

So, I guess what I'm getting at, is that until I knew about the "secret sales groups", I just assumed that I was on a "level playing field" with an even chance for getting a high quality plant online. Once flowered, I didn't imagine that they'd search all the plants, select the best and remove them from online sales, which is basically exactly what I feel like is happening.

I get the idea, and from now on, I'll only buy a flowering plant direct in a private sale if I want something specific or buy unbloomed plants if I want an even shot at something good.

My previous experiences with one of the only in-person orchid nurseries around where I live is that they might reserve the top 1 or 2 best for keeping around for breeding or something like that, what I'm seeing is more a matter of pulling the top 10 of 20 and unloading them on the side. I was fine taking my chances, but didn't know that being previously bloomed means "picked over", it's fine, lessons learned.

I guess the most surprising thing to me, was that the assumption I made was that the list price on the website was the price for the best plant they had available, not knowing that really any incoming order from the website gets what's leftover after flowering.

[Ray]

Let us also not forget that a plant that bloomed "spectacularly" under one person's care and conditions might produce a mediocre bloom for another.

[SaraJean]

I never really saw that as an issue. I’m not really in it for awards, more just the joy of growing something I like. Kind of like the difference between buying a regular German Shepherd puppy vs a pick of the litter and/or trained GSD from a specialists. Now, that doesn’t mean I will keep a dog of a flower in my collection (limited space and all that). However, if I am looking for particular traits like extra full flowers or excellent color, I will definitely try to get one of the reserved or marked orchids by reaching out to the vendor and plan on dropping extra cash on it. Or if it’s a cross that I am particularly interested in- I’ll pick up a couple of seedlings, bloom them, and trade or sell the ones I don’t want at a society meeting. There is also the first come first serve thing. Healthiest, biggest, and best will get sent out first.

What I DO have a problem with is when a vendor sells their “premium” “reserve” orchids on their “private” page… and then the when you order that same cross or species for sale through their website (even paying extra for a premium one) you get an unhealthy load of garbage with no roots, busted up leaves, and bugs. That is definitely not cool or good practice.

Also what Ray said. I have a division of a Paph that looked awful the first time I bloomed it. Only reason I kept it was because I had seen the mother plant’s flowers with my own eyes

[mopwr]

Originally Posted by SaraJean

What I DO have a problem with is when a vendor sells their “premium” “reserve” orchids on their “private” page… and then the when you order that same cross or species for sale through their website (even paying extra for a premium one) you get an unhealthy load of garbage with no roots, busted up leaves, and bugs. That is definitely not cool or good practice.

Yes, and there's also this, and I 100% agree with Ray that care and conditions can have a big impact.

I want to be clear, that I understand their efforts are valuable and they should sell the plants for what the market commands. I wanted a premium plant, and I selected the most expensive option listed on the website. If there had been a "previously bloomed, choice / select color" option, I would have probably anted up for that too, but I wasn't presented with anything like that.

I've been out of the hobby for a lot of years and before didn't have to.deal with a lot of the pitfalls of ordering online that I'm now wrangling with, and didn't expect to discover that going to their website put me at a disadvantage of sorts in that regard.

To what Ray said, not to toot my own horn, but I've grown this plant very well, it's doubled or tripled it's root system (clear pot, so I can see) and it's grown two perfect new leaves in addition to the spike it now has all in my care in just a few months, so soon enough I'll know if it was worth the time or if I'll be selling it to make room to get what I was hoping for to begin with. My primary concern is that I was hoping for a nice indigo purple blue (you know that color - we call it blue, but...), but I may end up with Fuscia at this point.

As far as a vendor I've dealt with that I feel handles this fairly and is very clear and up front (who also carries quality plants just in general), Big Leaf Orchids does a better job. He prices unbloomed plants the same, and he prices plants in flower based on the quality of the plant / flower, he does it all on the same website and it's first come first serve. He does have a Facebook group, but mostly to announce when things may be coming in stock, or to ask about preferences / gauge demand for something.

[Leafmite]

If they have already bloomed, are you shown the one you are getting in bloom? Does the vendor hold the orchid for a few blooming cycles or sell after the first bloom? From experience, I have been disappointed many times with the first and even second bloom of young Cattleyas and then, with the orchid being stronger, the flowers have gotten much better. So, if you are disappointed with the first bloom cycle, wait for two more before making a decision on the orchid.

I have been buying unbloomed seedlings from Sunset Valley Orchids that have 'potential'. I am just hoping that whatever the blooms are, they will be something I personally enjoy. If not...there is always the orchid society sale table.

[katsucats]

I don't really care about private collections. I would only care if I was a breeder looking for specific traits to cross. To build on SaraJean's dog analogy, I find that I'd rather take a well selected species outcross than some "pure" cultivar that's been mericloned for decades, or plants that are inbred for a particular trait. They might eventually meet a decrease in vigor, or pick up pathogens along the way.

I've only bought some SVO divisions that weren't overly expensive. I had bought some private collection plants from Orchid Trails that had ORSV, that I returned and they resold. I keep an eye out on Norman's or Big Leaf's private pages. They're always filled with, in my opinion, hype fads of the latest in breeding efforts, like a new colored Phal. speciosa that people would be willing to part with over 100 for, but Taiwanese distributors are selling those same plants for 25 (if you can somehow get past the import costs).

I'm sure that if your aesthetic preferences somehow match exactly those of AOS judges, then you could find the "best" cultivars in a breeder's private collection for big bucks. But if you're not measuring the width of every flower, I think that's well past diminishing returns.