Three Spurred Neofinetia Flowers

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by ramp

I think an other problem for now and future is the Korean and Japanese naming of different or the same varieties. So far I found over 500 different variety names. This is without the different possible alternate spellings. I'm trying to put a database together and it is proving hard to find out which is which.

There is a very set method of translating most of the Japanese neo names into Korean and vice versa. It's actually not difficult at all and all you need is a decent Kanji or Hanja dictionary to do the translation, and a basic ability to read the both languages phonetically, you pretty much don't need to be able to understand the words just be able to figure out what they sound like.

99% of all Neo names in Japanese use Kanji, which are Chinese characters. Korean historically uses Chinese characters too, and the difference in Korean and Japanese names, 95 percent of the time is simply the Japanese reading vs. the Japanese reading of those kanji. When written in those chinese characters, the names are often PRECISELY the same in both languages.

The different spellings that you encounter when written into english are all simply different ways people can transcribe Japanese or Korean into English, and this problem occurs not only with Neos but in every aspect of transcription of any language into another.

I admit that there are occasions where the most common name for a plant in Korea is completely different from the most common name for a plant in Japan, but those are exceptionally rare.

Manjushage is one of these. The chinese characters for Manjushage is 曼珠沙華. In korean, this would be pronounced, Manjusahwa. Sometimes the plants ARE called this. Oftentimes though in Korea, the same plants are called Sam-gak-san, which in chinese would be written, 三角山. This in Japanese would be pronounced San-kaku-san.

You might notice that in this case, the reading sounds similar in both languages. This is because both languages are approximating the original old chinese pronunciation of the chinese characters. (all chinese characters used in Japan and Korea are technically loanwords from Han China)

All this said, it may be a tall order for most people not familiar with the languages, the most reliable way to know which plant is which is by reading the Chinese characters of the name. Regardless of the pronunciation, they will be the same in Japanese and Korean nearly 100% of the time. (again, there are exceptions, but rare. The most common exception is changing the grammatical particle, "no" from Japanese (の) to the chinese character (之) in korean versions of chinese names)

Overall, when someone asks me a Korean name for a Japanese neofinetia or vice versa, all I am doing is doing a one to one phonetic transfer of each character between languages, then confirming it in my Korean and Japanese lists of varieties. It takes 2 or 3 minutes at most since I use online dictionaries. Of course there are a few small complexities, especially when converting from korean to japanese (it's easier to transfer from japanese to korean), it's all nothing a little bit of research won't overcome.

[MattWoelfsen]

Easy for you to ..uh...say! <S> Hakumin what would it take for you to be our official "Vanda Alliance -- Neofinetia Chief Translator? I'll send you an Amami seedling--if that is payment enough?

[ramp]

Hakumin,
I'll keep your interesting notes in mind but since I'm not that good in Asian scripture, maybe I leave it up to you for the moment.

Of what I read from your message, You have a list of both Japanese & Korean variety names?
Would you like to share it?

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by ramp

If Benikanzashi and Hanakanzashi are the same variety, which can be. Then why are they offered/sold under different names or what really should we call this variety?
Could you find out?

There are probably more varieties around, going under different names. It's all so confusing.

Unfortunately, encountering different names for the same plant in Japanese is not that uncommon. I'm sure that many of the Japanese growers the american vendors purchase from know that a plant can be named one of two names, but they neglect to mention this to the american vendors. So, if Glenn or Kristen obtains a "Hanakanzashi" from one vendor, and a "Benikanzashi" from another vendor, and they don't realize that they are the same plant, they'll sell them as two different varieties.

As for why there are two different names for two different plants, it could have been a telephone game effect where one person gets a plant from another person and accidentally writes down the name differently. It could also be that one person just changed the name on a whim which while annoying, wouldn't be taboo for a non-registered plant.

I personally think that it was most likely a case where the first person to find that seedling in their flask reported it as one name. A second person later on independently finds a seedling with the same characteristics as the first plant (but not descended from the first plant) so names it similarly to the first plant, but decides to change the name slightly to cover any potential future differences in characteristics.

Names can also change due to registration. One recent example is 緑宝の縞, Ryokuhou-no-shima. When registered, the plant was renamed 緑彩宝, Ryokusaihou. Yet, I find Japanese sellers on the internet still using the old name while others use the new name. In this case, because of registration, I would think that the new name would be considered correct.

In the case of Hanakanzashi and Benikanzashi, given that they are the same plant, but the plant is registered under neither name, it would be perfectly fine to call it one or the other. I would probably stick with the name that the plant was purchased as, however. As there's always a chance that they might not be clones but two different seedlings that happened to appear with the same characteristics.

[jeremiah.chua]

Two different people called it two different things. Both caught on, maybe one more so than the other (hanakanzashi seems more popular). It's quite common for things to have similar names. In any case, either one is the same plant, triple colored spur.

One should note that Hanakanzashi/Benikanzashi is an incredibly unstable plant. Forming triple spurs does NOT happen often. And when spurs do form, they are generally all weird looking and rarely in the perfect shape as manjushage.
In example, my Hana/Benikanzashi attempted to form spurs. Instead, the spurs stopped growing and even stunted the petals. I ended up with an alien flower. The spurs are those two dots that look like eyes.
The following spike from the same plant looks like a normal shutennou flower.

SE had a Hanakanzashi for sale at the SB neo show. It had triple spurs on some flowers on the same spike, others showed no additional spurs. Furthermore, the ones with extra spurs had very short and irregular formed extra spurs. The idea of a colored triple spur is dreamy but the reality is, this plant is of a lack-luster when compared to Manjushage's spurs. We should appreciate it for its weirdness rather than expecting a colored manjushage.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by MattWoelfsen

Easy for you to ..uh...say! <S> Hakumin what would it take for you to be our official "Vanda Alliance -- Neofinetia Chief Translator? I'll send you an Amami seedling--if that is payment enough?

Haha,

No need to send me a seedling, I am always happy to provide the service for no compensation.

[ramp]

I find all of this quite interesting.
Hakumin and Jeremaiah, What do you think of starting a new tread on this subject as we are straying from the original one.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by ramp

Of what I read from your message, You have a list of both Japanese & Korean variety names?
Would you like to share it?

I said Korean and Japanese lists out of ease, rather than accuracy to be honest. I mainly just use google and search for plants with the particular name that I compiled. If I find more than a few hits from reputable sources, of plants having that name with the same characteristics, I'll call it a correct translation.

I used to have a list of Japanese names but that website is gone now....

Unfortunately there's no single list that I know of that has all the names directly translated.

[ramp]

I said Korean and Japanese lists out of ease, rather than accuracy to be honest. I mainly just use google and search for plants with the particular name that I compiled. If I find more than a few hits from reputable sources, of plants having that name with the same characteristics, I'll call it a correct translation.

I used to have a list of Japanese names but that website is gone now....

Unfortunately there's no single list that I know of that has all the names directly translated.

Please take a look on what I am working on at the moment. If you have the time.
Here are the links:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5q...it?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by ramp

Please take a look on what I am working on at the moment. If you have the time.
Here are the links:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5q...it?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I can certainly help with contributing to the Neo Base website when that's available.

As for the google documents, If you'll allow me editing privileges, I can work at filling in the "Korean", "Translation" and "Alternate Spelling" columns and adding two more columns, "Hangul" (Written Korean) "Hiragana" (Phonetic Written Japanese)

PM me if you need my google email address.