My Neofinetia story, with a hokage in flower

[dries666]

Today, thanks to Dagobell's pictures, I finally found the name of my so called "kinroukaku".... It came to me as a kinryuukaku from the grower but he didn't know anything more about it and another guy who grows a lot of orchids and knew much about the neo's said that it could possible be a kinroukaku, since the name kinryuukaku didn't seem to exist and this was quite close from the looks of the plant and the so called name. To me it looked more like a kogane nishiki plant though! especially with the green axis and very limegreen roottips.
now.... dagobell has in my oppinion exactly the same plant and with him it was called "kinyuukou". And this does give several search results to an orchid that was supposedly discovered in 1940 in japan. So that's enough for me ... they must have accidentally added an R and a 'ka' in the name.
so this is the plant I am talking about... now I'm about 99% sure it's a Neofinetia Kinyuukou 金幽晃


greetz,
dries

[Red Orchid]

Great that you solved the mystery of your Neo. Btw, it is a beautiful plant & I love how neatly it is potted & labelled.

[kentaki]

Actually both 金幽晃 and exist.
金幽晃:
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¶âÍ©¹¸ - ÉÙµ®Íö¤ÎÌ¥ÎÏ - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°

There are two types of 金鏤閣:
1. Narrow leaves:
https://www.orchidweb.com/products/n...kaku~3022.html
2. Wide leaves:
‹àèZŠt
¶âï»³Õ - µ¤¤Þ¤Þ¤ËÉÙµ®Íö - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°

But apparently, seedlings of 金幽晃 may be treated as 金幽晃 sometimes.

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金幽晃です。これも、今年は、綺麗な虎がでました。この木は実生ですが、本性品と見分けが付かないぐらい、 よく似た木だと思います。本性品より、育てやすく増えやすいと思います。

"This is 金幽晃. Leaves show beautiful torafu this year, too. While this is a seedling, it looks very much like the true cultivar. It is easier to grow and multiplies better than the cultivar."

[dries666]

Originally Posted by kentaki

Actually both 金幽晃 and exist.
金幽晃:
ÉÙµ®Íö¡¦¶âÍ©¹¸ - ¤Þ¤ë¤´¤ÈÉÙµ®Íö - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°
¶âÍ©¹¸ - ÉÙµ®Íö¤ÎÌ¥ÎÏ - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°

There are two types of 金鏤閣:
1. Narrow leaves:
https://www.orchidweb.com/products/n...kaku~3022.html
2. Wide leaves:
‹àèZŠt
¶âï»³Õ - µ¤¤Þ¤Þ¤ËÉÙµ®Íö - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°

But apparently, seedlings of 金幽晃 may be treated as 金幽晃 sometimes.

¶âÍ©¹¸ - ¤½¤ì¤ÏÉ÷Íö¡Á¢ö - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°
金幽晃です。これも、今年は、綺麗な虎がでました。この木は実生ですが、本性品と見分けが付かないぐらい、 よく似た木だと思います。本性品より、育てやすく増えやすいと思います。

"This is 金幽晃. Leaves show beautiful torafu this year, too. While this is a seedling, it looks very much like the true cultivar. It is easier to grow and multiplies better than the cultivar."

I know that both 金鏤閣 kinroukaku and 金幽晃 kinyuukou exist... the name it had was kinryuukaku and that's the name I think might not exist.

The pictures on the sites made me hesitate though. I thought that a kinroukaku shows some mud brown on the　じく (axis) and might produce pink roottips. My var. however has a clear green じく and very light green roottips. That's why it looked a lot like a kogane nishiki to me [黄金錦]. But now I understand that there exists an kinyuukou [金幽晃] that seems to look exactly like mine.

might u have an idea how to destinguish between these 3 varieties? ( I really would like to know...) I could make some better pictures, and I can also tell u that most of my new leaves come up quite green and then start to get their yellow colour from the torafu. this color is produced in the tissue of the upperside of the leaf and also just over the edge of the leaf on the underside, but the middle underside of the leaves tend to stay greenish.

also, is this considered wide leaf or narrow leaf? because I don't really see much difference between them. For now I can only say I find them quite small and the leafspan of the plant is quite limited as wel, even my tamakongou is getting a bigger leafspan than this one.

But thanks for the sites u offered ... I'll look through them a little better when I find the time.

greetings,
Dries

[vjo]

I really hope that most growers dont take this way of identifying their plants! When I read about or buy a plant I want to be as sure as I can be that what I am buying is correctly labeled. We tell people here with noid Phals or any other plant that you can not EVER label them as anything other than Phal. Cat or ??? Why is a Neo. any different.I know we would all like ALL of our plants to have a registered name but alas that will never be but should we ever guess? Doesn't sound ethical to me! I hope that Glen or Jason or whoever dont do that. .....Jean

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by vjo

I really hope that most growers dont take this way of identifying their plants! When I read about or buy a plant I want to be as sure as I can be that what I am buying is correctly labeled. We tell people here with noid Phals or any other plant that you can not EVER label them as anything other than Phal. Cat or ??? Why is a Neo. any different.I know we would all like ALL of our plants to have a registered name but alas that will never be but should we ever guess? Doesn't sound ethical to me! I hope that Glen or Jason or whoever dont do that. .....Jean

Initially, I thought I would "second" the sentiment, but Fûkiran is not all that straight forward. First of all, the system or whatever was developed in Japan, so it does not necessarily align with the RHS or AOS system. On a similar matter, I have a huge beef with people who just nonchalantly create so called "hort. var." or botanical varieties even if they have never been described so that they could get awards for their plants. Orchids Plus lists a whole bunch of "clones" under var. Shutenô when indeed, it is a cultivar. Also, variegation or "gei" (roughly translates into "feature" or "characteristic") of Fûkiran may not be stable, meaning your cultivar (e.g., 西出都) may turn into something different (e.g., 銀世界, 真鶴, etc.). And that is one appeal of Fûkiran.

The Japanese does something confusing to outside people. They self some cultivars, and if they have a similar "gei," sometimes, they treat like the parental cultivar (see above). And interspecific hybrids, especially in the case of yellow ones. BTW, there is at least one naturally cream colored cultivar. Furthermore, there are "unregistered" Fûkiran. One example, would be 紅嚇殿 (Crimson Grand Palace). Unregistered Fûkiran cultivar sometimes have an alternate name, which adds more confusion. So there always will be some guessing to a certain extent.

To me, the world of "classic" plants like Fûkiran or Chôseiran (Den. moniliforme), or Rhodea or whatever is filled with chaos and confusion, which you have to deal by yourself with occasional help of "elders" or "gurus." I applaud brave people who are getting into this, but we really don't have people with that much of experience outside of Japan, do we? If there is a comprehensive book that lists many cultivars, that would be helpful, but no, none is available in English at this point.

Another thing is, there is a bit of information here and there, and some of it is very wrong. Just look at "meaning" of names listed at the Fuukiran Society web page, and I see a whole bunch of incorrect information... That is scary. One example I have seen here and at the Fuukiran web page is, the meaning or translation of Shutenô. It probably has nothing to do with "Emperor." Sure, Tennô means "emperor" in Japanese, but the characters are 天皇 not 天王 (usually). 天王 is a type deity, especially in a Buddhism context. Besides, the Japanese tend to avoid naming a cultivar in reference to the emperor out of respect although there are some exceptions.

I certainly won't discourage people from growing these, but I really think something needs to be done in a more comprehensive and logical manner.

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

Originally Posted by dries666

I know that both 金鏤閣 kinroukaku and 金幽晃 kinyuukou exist... the name it had was kinryuukaku and that's the name I think might not exist.

The name does exist for Chôseiran and Fûkiran:
•x‹M—––¼�Ì“o˜^•Û‘¶‹@�\
金龍閣 × きんりゅうかく 虎斑 　　 　　 　　 　　 青龍獅子の後冴え黄虎斑(人為的作出の可能性有り)・03/04p手塚
Basically 青龍獅子 with later intensifying Torafu.
But even if I Googled, nothing really shows up. Logically thinking, if the cultivar is really 金龍閣, how such a thing showed up in Germany? It is possible, but I would have a serious suspicion. Supposedly, 金龍閣 is not registered, and possibly created artificially. I am not certain what it means, but 金龍閣 may be a seedling of 青龍獅子.

From the web page mentioned above
Torafu:
金幽晃 ?
金鏤閣 Nochizae (later intensifying)
黄金錦 Nochikurami (later fading)

Root Tip:
金幽晃 Amber
金鏤閣 Pink
黄金錦 Green

Stem:
金幽晃 Green
金鏤閣 Mud
黄金錦 Green

But as I have mentioned, I am not an expert. I just can read Japanese and know where to find the info.

[vjo]

I dont think that the names were ever meant to be translated into English so I am not surprised that it is not making sense to an English thinking brain. lol
Also how does an R ---KA all get accidentally added to anything? Does not make any sense to me either. Now what I must say is that I know next to nothing about how anyone names Neos so maybe I am making a big mistake saying anything about anything. All I know is I like to have the correct names on mine, not one someone guessed at....Jean

[MattWoelfsen]

Jean, I am confident that if you order a specific named Neofinetia from Seed Engei, or New World Orchids, or Orchids Limited, you will get that plant. I do not think they guess at these names. You are right, these Japanese names were not intended to be translated into English. But it is inevitable that a non-Japanese speaking, reading, and writing person might want to know what the Japanese name means in English.

How I understand these names? To use another example, Manjushage is a well known plant that costs a lot of money because of its unique feature of having three spures. These plants have to bloom these flowers before they can be sold as a Manjushage. Based on pictures, when a plant is in full bloom, it looks like a flock of white cranes. So I would say Manjushage meant "White Crane" in English. That might be wrong. But that is how I would refer to this plant. That is what I would go by, until otherwise advised by a trusted source.

However, if I were to show this plant and get it judged, I would stick to the formal name of Vanda falcata "Manjushage". I would mount the plant in a Fukiran pot with images of white cranes on it.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by MattWoelfsen

But it is inevitable that a non-Japanese speaking, reading, and writing person might want to know what the Japanese name means in English.

Sometimes, it does not make sense in modern Japanese, either. We are good at getting the feel of it as a whole, but not in a detailed way. We just accept as they are. I mentioned somewhere, but we normally do not translate other orchid species or hybrids name. Sure, there is a mention on why a specific species was named, etc. But Fûkiran falls into the realm of "classic" plants, and the naming system is quite different. And knowing or guessing how/why it was named is for somebody "cultured" or in the know. I think that (etymology) is one thing that has been neglected in the U.S. This is why a direct translation is futile in some cases. You have to be cultured or know a guru who can teach you about things like this. I am going to repeat this, but it is like antique appreciation.

Originally Posted by MattWoelfsen

So I would say Manjushage meant "White Crane" in English. That might be wrong.

No to the first statement and yes to the latter. 曼珠沙華 is a plant that appears in one of Buddhist scriptures. But it is a common name of Lycorice radiata in modern day:
ヒガン�ナ - Wikipedia.
I read seedlings that likely to have 曼珠沙華 芸(gei = feature, or characteristic) are pre-selected based on plant morphology. The one on eBay recently would not likely to have 曼珠沙華芸 *if* what I read is correct:
Òؼ²Ú¤Î¼ÂÀ¸¤¬¡¢¤¿¤¯¤µ¤ó½Ð¤Æ¤ª¤ê¤Þ¤¹¤¬¡¢ºé¤*¤Þ¤· ¤¿¤Ç¤·¤ç¤¦¡£ - ÉÙµ®Íö¡¢ÉÙµ®Íö¤Î̵¶ÝÇżï - Yahoo!¥Ö¥í¥°

I think it was you that compared Fûkiran to antiques. That comparison was right on. There are a lot of Fûkiran plants that may or may not turn out to what they are supposed to be just like antiques. I would like to believe the US vendors are reliable, but ultimately, they are buying from Japanese vendors except for Seed Engei. I would also like to believe whoever they are buying from are trust worthy, but there are people that are dubious just like anywhere else. I did and do not know vendors of Fûkiran or some other "classic" plants, but I had a friend in orchid business, so I heard stories. And generally, the situation is (much?) worse in "classic" plants. Even in here, there are a few vendors that could or cannot be trusted. I even bought a piece of Paph. rothschidlianum 'Charles E.' from them. But most of whatever available in US are something affordable to begin with, so the chances that you have real ones are high. There isn't much of a reason to cheat. But would they really care when Fûkiran plants are not sold in bulk and their reputation does not matter to them in foreign countries?

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------

Originally Posted by vjo

Also how does an R ---KA all get accidentally added to anything?

Sorry, I do not get this.

Originally Posted by vjo

All I know is I like to have the correct names on mine, not one someone guessed at

I agree with you, but does a name really matter as long as you are happy with your plant?

[Jayfar]

To some of the points kentaki raises, search for a thread on the slippertalk forum titled "Short note on neofinetia falcata cultivar disillusions" for a more cynical view. I know I've mentioned that thread before; it's a bit disheartening if the allegations are true.