Nomenclature Question

[Shoreguy]

Sorry if this has been authoritatively been answered before.

If two pure named and registered Neofinetia falcatas are crossed, are the offspring referred to as Neofinetias or Neofinetia hybrids?

Please answer this question only in reference to Neofinetias and not other species or genera before this thread becomes too wild and totally unintelligible.

[estación seca]

Progeny resulting from breeding two individuals of the same species will be of the same species.

[SouthPark]

S.G. --- since falcata is a species, then crossing a falcata with another falcata is the crossing of two individuals of the same species ...... resulting in outcomes of the same species.

The issues probably come up if anybody decides that not all falcata orchids are falcata orchids.

[Shoreguy]

Yes, I am aware of what you are both saying, and I carefully included reference to “falcata” so as not to bring up the issue of other Neof species into the discussion. Yes, the offspring is the same species as the parents but is the cross between the two named cultivars considered to be a hybrid?
Is the term hybrid really clearly defined or just loosely tossed around?

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

Yes, the offspring is the same species as the parents but is the cross between the two named cultivars considered to be a hybrid?
Is the term hybrid really clearly defined or just loosely tossed around?

The term hybrid, like with many other terms that see wide spread use in multiple disciplines, has varying meanings depending on the context. However, that doesn't mean that the term is simply loosely tossed around.

When you see the English word hybrid in the context of orchids (including Neos) without any further specification, the speaker/writer intends to mean an interspecific hybrid—that is, the offspring of a cross between two different taxonomic species.



However, the simple term hybrid, when encountered in different circumstances outside the world of orchids, can have slightly different intentions. In some contexts, the user could primarily mean the offspring resulting from the cross between two subspecies/varieties/breeds/cultivars within the same species.

Going by the dictionary definition, a hybrid is:

The offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

So basically, it's a cross between individuals from two different groups of organisms that have been deemed distinct from each other in some way. That distinction may occur above or below the species rank.

Because the strict definition of the word hybrid doesn't specify that exact level, whenever necessary, the different types of hybrids can be clarified by explicitly specifying what type of hybrid is intended:

• Interspecific hybrid - Offspring of two or more different taxonomic species.
• Intergeneric hybrid - Offspring of two or more different taxonomic genera. These are also technically interspecific hybrids as well.
• Intraspecific hybrid - Offspring of two or more different subspecies, varieties, breeds or cultivars within the same taxonomic species.

Coming back to orchids and Neos though, in English, when anyone speaks of a "Neofinetia hybrid," or states that any particular Neo is a hybrid they are specifically talking about interspecific hybrids.

However, going by the dictionary definition, the term hybrid could be used to refer to the offspring of two pure species Neos of different cultivars. But this is almost always avoided due to the history and practices surrounding orchid breeding.

When an intraspecific hybrid is intended, an English speaking orchid grower will typically mention it as a "cross between" the plants involved.

[SouthPark]

So ------ if the parents involved are assumed to be from the same species (eg. falcata), then the outcome of the cross will not be a hybrid. The outcome will be the same species.

[Shoreguy]

No,

Read what Hakumin stated. Plant is an intraspecific hybrid although the same species.

I inadvertently hit the like button on your most recent post.

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

No,

Read what Hakumin stated. Plant is an intraspecific hybrid although the same species.

I inadvertently hit the like button on your most recent post.

As for intRA-specific hybrid. Well ------ that becomes a matter of definition. So if we're going to use the 'rules' of a different cohort (eg. not AOS tied to royal hort orchid society etc) ....... then the definition will be based on that other cohort's playing field.

So as long we make terms (definitions, and in what context etc) super clear at the beginning of discussions in this particular Neofinetia area (for cases where some people might get confused over definitions) ------ then that will be beneficial to all involved in the discussion.

So when using the nomenclature system that AOS and/or RHS uses ------ then they probably don't have a 'hybrid' term that involves intra-specific. We can check later anyway.

As long as we stay within a particular system - then ok. I won't force one's system upon some other group -----and vice versa.

[Shadeflower]

The way I look at it it's like dog varieties.

You can get labradors and you can have golden retrievers.
You can breed a black labrador with a golden labrador and get labrador babies.

But then you can breed the labrador with the golden retriever and get a hybrid.

So crossing one falcata with a different falcata would be like crossing a black labrador with a golden labrador but not as far as crossing it with a golden retriever which would be the equivalent of crossing the neo with a different species.

Like this the neo varieties although they are all neo's have been bred to have lots of different variations but they are all still the same species just like a golden lab is the same as a black one even though they look vastly different.

[Shoreguy]

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

The way I look at it it's like dog varieties.



So crossing one falcata with a different falcata would be like crossing a black labrador with a golden labrador but not as far as crossing it with a golden retriever which would be the equivalent of crossing the neo with a different species.

.

I don't understand your comparison as a golden retriever is the same species as a black lab.