Neof. Hybrid vs Ascofinetia,etc

[Shoreguy]

First off, I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate into a discussion of the Vanda designation.

Is there a formal or informal rule or understanding naming convention to describe how such plants are to be referred to or is it somewhat subjective?

That is, naming a hybrid plant with Neofinetia ancestry with a name such as Neofinetia Yubae, or an intergeneric name such as Ascofinetia Cherry Blossum.

Sometimes the decision is forced by not knowing the complete ancestry in which case the name must be of the form Neofinetia XXXXXXXXX, but if known what if any are the rules, formal or informal?

If there are rules, formal or informal, what are they?

[BobMO]

Ascofinetia, abbreviated Ascf. in the horticultural trade, is an intergeneric hybrid between the orchid genera Ascocentrum and Neofinetia (Asctm. × Neof.).

I also checked Internet Orchid Species Photo Encyclopedia, my go to site for species, and there are no listings for Ascofinetia.

Regards

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------

To clarify, if the plant is an intergeneric hybrid it is a Ascofinetia.

[Shoreguy]

I am fully aware of what you wrote above the “Regards”

I do not agree with what you said below. There are many intergenerics in addition to ascofinetia.

[Hakumin]

The IAPT mentions this about hybrids:

Article H.3

They don't give an example of a hybrid with partially unknown parentage, but they do dedicate one line to them stating that "a nothotaxon cannot be designated unless at least one parental taxon is known or can be postulated." which indicates that a nothotaxon can be designated as long as at least one of the parents is known, even if the others are not.

So, it is it supposed to be:

x Neofinetia falcata 'Cultivar Name'
x Vanda falcata 'Cultivar Name'

Or maybe,

x Neofinetia 'Cultivar Name'
x Vanda 'Cultivar Name'

Or is it supposed to be given a completely new nothotaxon...?

Going by the IAPT, I'm not really sure which would be appropriate, but I'm not sure that any of that in the end actually matters because I think nothotaxa need to be published to be official.

That said, hybrid nomenclature across the horticultural world overall is rather inconsistent.

Even in the western orchid world, there doesn't seem to be a consistent desire to clearly indicate unknown hybrids either (or at least people have just given up). All of those NOID supermarket phals could possibly contain parentage from a different genus or two, but they're all more or less called Phalaenopsis (especially so before the great lumping of everything into Phalaenopsis).

In light of all of that, personally, I think it's most important to just be clear about it. So, informally I usually write them as:

Neofinetia Hybrid 'Cultivar Name'

[Shoreguy]

Thank you Hakumin.

In other words, if a plant is known to be a pure Neofinetia but the Neofinetia cultivars in its background are either known or unknown, it would be referred to as Neofinetia ‘cultivar'

If the plant is known to include other plants of another genus which are not known, the plant would be referred to as Neofinetia hybrid ‘cultivar’.

If the genuses are known, the the plant would be given the intergeneric name ‘cultivar'.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

In other words, if a plant is known to be a pure Neofinetia but the Neofinetia cultivars in its background are either known or unknown, it would be referred to as Neofinetia ‘cultivar'

If the plant is known to be pure Neofinetia, then you'd simply use the binomial name. The individual pure species cultivars used to create it don't alter its status as pure, so the species name is still used:

Neofinetia falcata 'Cultivar'
e.g. Neofinetia falcata 'Daishōgun'

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

If the genuses are known, the the plant would be given the intergeneric name ‘cultivar'.

If the genuses of the parents are known, the accepted method in the western orchid world would be:

Nothotaxon Grex 'Cultivar'
e.g. Neostylis Lou Sneary 'Bluebird'

In this case, Neostylis is the nothotaxon, which because the parentage involves just two genera, it's created by combining the two genera names, Neofinetia and Rhyncostylis. (Nothotaxa involving 4 or more different genera are named using a person's name + -ara. e.g. Darwinara). The nothotaxon simply describes the genera involved in the hybridization, but doesn't tell you how the cross was made. Knowing just the nothotaxon, you wouldn't be able to recreate a hybrid.

Lou Sneary is the grex. The grex defines the exact parentage of the plant down to its species level and also the breeding sequence. So knowing the grex, you would be able to recreate a hybrid.

'Bluebird' is the cultivar name.

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

If the plant is known to include other plants of another genus which are not known, the plant would be referred to as Neofinetia hybrid ‘cultivar’.

If the parentage is not fully known, but is fairly certain that it involves another genus, then there doesn't seem to be a consistent universal method to naming these, so whatever method you use to designate that they are hybrid, I think it's important to just be clear about it, and the method that I usually use is:

Neofinetia Hybrid 'Cultivar'
e.g. Neofinetia Hybrid 'Gongju'

[neophyte]

Just curious, is 'Gongju' a Chinese hybrid or is it just a coincidence that the pronunciation is the same for both Mandarin and Japanese? Assuming it means princess.

(Of course it wouldn't be purely, purely coincidental, since the two languages have influenced each other, I'm sure...)

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by neophyte

Just curious, is 'Gongju' a Chinese hybrid or is it just a coincidence that the pronunciation is the same for both Mandarin and Japanese? Assuming it means princess.

(Of course it wouldn't be purely, purely coincidental, since the two languages have influenced each other, I'm sure...)

The variety is one that was bred and named in Korea. Gongju is the Korean reading (as well as the Mandarin). The Japanese reading would be Kōshu.

The name of the variety in Chinese characters is 公主.

[neophyte]

How interesting; thank you!