Neofinetia Seedling - Buyer Beware or Buyer Blessing?

[K-Sci]

A selfing of a wild-type Orchid will normally produce seedlings that range considerably in size, flower size and color, leaf size shape color and uniformity, the vigor, resistance to disease, and many other traits. For this reason I worry that some seller's Neofinetia offering may include seedlings from a selfing rather than meristem culture or division.

There are, for example, a lot of Houmeiden offered for sale that don't look right for various reasons. Many plants are smaller, have skinnier leaves, or leaves that don't open as wide. On others, the variegation isn't as white, appears to fade prematurely, or the white is only on the back of the leaves.

Leaving marginal variegated Neos out of the discussion, how often do you think inferior Neo clones of varieties that sell at high prices are sold without mention that it is a seedling?



K-Sci

[Shoreguy]

Meristems are not necessarily safe as they can exhibit mutations.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

Meristems are not necessarily safe as they can exhibit mutations.

Agree. An example is the variegated Neo varieties expressing variegation due to carrying multiple genomes. The plants from a meristem culture can have only one genome, the other, or chimera with tissues remixed to produce a variety of phenotype.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I worry that some seller's Neofinetia offering may include seedlings from a selfing rather than meristem culture or division.

Seed propagation of neos is extremely common for many varieties. It's been spoken about numerous times here on OB and elsewhere over the years, but basically, for neos, as long as the offspring carry the same defining characteristics as the parent, a neo variety may be propagated by seed and those that have the right characteristics given the same name as the parent. This is controversial for many western tradition orchid growers, but it is for better or worse, normal in the neo world. In fact, for certain varieties, especially those with colored flowers, tora variegation, and bean leaf varieties, any individual you buy is much more likely to be seed propagated than a division. (As for mericlones, you won't be finding too many of those on the market yet as the techniques for neos are only just being developed. The absolute first mericloned neos made available for sale have only just hit the market in the US)

Now, "same defining characteristics" does not always imply identical appearance, and it's important to understand that in most cases, yes there will be some level of variation between seed grown offspring even if they are given the same name as the parent. (Incidentally, there are certain highly mutable varieties that can only be propagated by division but still show a relatively wide range of variation between individuals. One of those is the famous Kinbotan.)

Originally Posted by K-Sci

There are, for example, a lot of Houmeiden offered for sale that don't look right for various reasons. Many plants are smaller, have skinnier leaves, or leaves that don't open as wide. On others, the variegation isn't as white, appears to fade prematurely, or the white is only on the back of the leaves.

Houmeiden is one of the varieties that is most often seed propagated, and yes the seedlings are generally smaller. Some do mature to full size, some don't. Some have better characteristics than the original, some don't. All of the ones you find labeled simply as Houmeiden though have the defining white tora-fu characteristic, albeit to varying levels of quality.

You can buy originals easily though if you just ask, and in the US, an original will pretty much always be labeled as original by the seller if they know that it is. The originals however are quite a bit more expensive.

Quite honestly though, I find that there are many seed grown individuals of Houmeiden that are better than the original (in variegation or leaf shape), and I myself have sold off my original in favor of a seed grown one that I like better.

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Leaving marginal variegated Neos out of the discussion, how often do you think inferior Neo clones of varieties that sell at high prices are sold without mention that it is a seedling?

Inferior or not, it's common practice to sell seed grown neo varieties with the name of the parent as long as they show the defining characteristics. Each breeder, though, has different standards for what they consider acceptable when culling the seedlings though, and some may definitely be better or worse than the others or the original.

Because of this, it's important to buy from a trustworthy vendor unless you are ok with the risk of getting a dud, and more importantly, research the variety and examine the plant thoroughly before you buy it. If you're still uncertain afterwards, just ask. Any respectable vendor will tell you the truth.

The fact that most vendors won't mention it until you ask isn't a sign of dishonesty, but rather a difference in how the neo world operates. Because it is considered common knowledge that certain varieties or characteristics are commonly seed propagated, most vendors don't bother mentioning it. It's up to the buyer to understand it or ask.

Actually, nowadays, if a vendor labels plant explicitly as a seedling of so and so variety, it's more likely to not show the correct characteristics.

This is because if the plant is simply labeled with a name, seed grown or not, they're asserting that it has the characteristics defined by that name. If they add to the label that it's a seedling, it's usually because there's something significantly different from the parent or because it's not yet verified to be the same as the parent in its defining characteristics.



So, is it buyer beware or buyer blessing?

It's both. Seed propagation introduces a bit of variation, and variation can go both ways, good or bad. It's definitely buyer beware in that you should always be aware of what varieties can be seed propagated and what can't be, and better yet, research how likely each specific variety is to be seed propagated. However, because the variation of seed propagation can produce better offspring just as much as it can produce inferior offspring, it's also a buyer blessing.

---------- Post added at 03:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

Meristems are not necessarily safe as they can exhibit mutations.

Exactly! Seed Engei just listed for sale the first mericloned neos available to the US Market, a bunch of mericloned Hanamatoi.

One of the results of the mericloning was actually an individual with added shima variegation, which she had a division of for sale as well.

Mericloning is a controversial thing in the neo world, just as much as seed propagation was originally, but just the same, it has the potential to open up the hobby to tons of interesting new varieties.

[Shoreguy]

Buying a division might be buying a division of a plant that was a man made created matured seedling. So a statement of a plant being a division might not mean what you think.

I believe that buying a plant is a pig in a poke. I have been growing orchids for over 50 years, neos seriously for about 15 and have garbaged a large number, neos and non neos. It is part of the hobby. Some were not the plant's fault but an inappropriate choice do to the conditions I can provide, other times because of an uncontrollable insect infestation.

[estación seca]

It is frequently not possible to do meristem propagation, and retain the desired unusual characteristics of variegation or monstrosity, in plants in many genera. An example is Sansevieria, the snake plant. Variegation can only be propagated by rhizome division, not leaf cuttings and not meristem cloning. Neos may wind up being similar.