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09-09-2020, 09:57 AM
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Haikumin -
On point 2, if it’s s species, that would make it a variety, not a cultivated variety, no?
There seems to be a lot of debate of “registration” of cultivar names. My understanding is that there is no actual registration, per se, just that they are captured (recorded) as part of the award record.
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09-09-2020, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
On point 2, if it’s s species, that would make it a variety, not a cultivated variety, no?
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No. It's cultivated if it's grown and propagated by humans. Whether it's a hybrid or species, or whether or not it first occurred naturally or created by humans doesn't matter.
Actually even the AOS explicitly says on their website that cultivar names can be applied to both hybrids and species.
The term variety is vague though, and usage varies, which is where the confusion comes from I think. Informally many use it as a synonym to cultivar, while others like you are thinking it as the taxonomic term variety/varietas, which is not the same thing, but also not mutually exclusive. A taxonomic variety can be the source of a cultivar too.
I suggest reading the code in its entirety if you can. I linked it in the original response. It explains all of that outright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
There seems to be a lot of debate of “registration” of cultivar names. My understanding is that there is no actual registration, per se, just that they are captured (recorded) as part of the award record.
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Well, that recording is the "registration" that I mean. Maybe I should have said "recognition" instead.
Last edited by Hakumin; 09-11-2020 at 04:07 AM..
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09-09-2020, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoreguy
I am totally confused by these terms.
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Assuming two different SPECIES (species A and species B) are described and agreed-upon that they are two different species. Then a cross of different species will be given a term or label ------ which basically is a name given to that crossing of 2 different species. Suppose the crossing name is called 'X'.
Also suppose there is another species C. And we make a cross between say A and C. We have to give that cross a name too, call it 'Y'.
So we have X and Y. Both are crosses, and there are names for them .... ie 'X' and 'Y'.
And suppose we cross X and Y. We have to give that a crossing name too, call it 'Z'.
The term for the names of those crosses (X, Y, and Z) is given a name ...... called grex.
If a general name hasn't yet been given to those crosses ..... such as if the cross associated with 'X' was not given a name, then people would just fall back on providing the actual components associated with the cross ..... such as symbols like A x B (ie. A crossed with B). So 'A x B' is still a cross ------ but just hasn't yet been assigned a name (the 'grex', which is probably interchangeable with the words 'grex name').
A cultivar is any particular individual original orchid (and clones or divisions having exact DNA match with the original individual plant is considered to be the same 'cultivar').
For example, if one orchid (and its clones and divisions) has its unique DNA ...... then that's a cultivar. I think that - even if a species plant ...... that an original orchid (unique DNA) could be considered a 'cultivar'. Getting into variations and things starts to become very wishy washy.
If it is necessary, then cultivar could certainly be lumped into plants that were produced with human intervention. Otherwise, just drop the human factor, and could still call original orchids 'cultivars'.
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09-09-2020, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthPark
A cultivar is any particular individual original orchid (and clones or divisions having exact DNA match with the original individual plant is considered to be the same 'cultivar').
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Keep in mind that this definition only applies to the "jurisdiction" of the AOS and western orchid societies descended from the AOS. In most other species, including orchidaceae outside of the western orchid traditions (Neos, Asian cymbidiums, etc.) this restriction on genetic matching, or even the assumption of a match, isn't always used.
Last edited by Hakumin; 09-11-2020 at 01:42 AM..
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09-09-2020, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin
Keep in mind that this definition only applies to the "jurisdiction" of the AOS and western orchid societies. In many other species, including orchidaceae outside of the western orchid traditions (Neos, Asian cymbidiums, etc.) this restriction on exact DNA matching doesn't always exist.
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We definitely have to keep 'definitions' in mind. Definitions is what it's all about.
This is also where assumptions come in too. If there is uncertainty in a plant's DNA, then people have tended to need to go by assumptions. Assuming heritage for their plant ----- because without cheap and reliable DNA testing out there, who knows if a particular plant is what it is ..... as in a mutation occurred or not, or other things.
I forgot to mention ---- for hybrids, the grex name can just be something like X, or Y or Z, or whatever we want to name it officially (via registration).
And, if one of the results of a cross needs a cultivar name, then it will be Neof. Y 'OrchidBoard' ..... where the cultivar name is 'OrchidBoard'. The single quotes is part of the format for cultivar name.
For species plants ...... I'm *thinking* that they could do the same .... such as just go something like L. anceps 'abcde' (where the species name anceps is all lower case characters).
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09-10-2020, 02:33 AM
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Exact DNA matching isn't a criterion for anything. It can't be done from a practical standpoint. Divisions and mericlones are considered cultivars of the original orchid plant unless there is a very obvious new mutation.
Grex means the same thing in all plants. Other groups of plants in horticulture have the term 'cultivar' used differently than it is used in orchids, but it always means a recognizable group of very similar plants.
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09-10-2020, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estación seca
Grex means the same thing in all plants.
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Grexes are only used with orchids. Hybrids in any plants outside of the Orchidaceae family do not use grexes in their identification, and are either given a nothotaxon or are not given a name, instead using the x notation. (Ref. ICNCP Article 4, Wikipedia, IAPT Chapter H)
Again, I apologize for pressing on this. I think it's actually quite important to understand this whole thing about grexes and cultivars and how it works in horticulture overall both in and outside of the orchid world. (I've even come across people who have basically argued that any system that doesn't adhere to the AOS standard is fraudulent...)
Last edited by Hakumin; 09-10-2020 at 03:08 AM..
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09-10-2020, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin
Again, I apologize for pressing on this. I think it's actually quite important to understand this whole thing about grexes and cultivars and how it works in horticulture overall both in and outside of the orchid world.[/IMG]
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It is a good thread this one. Maybe it's ok to just focus on orchids in general here, and assume that the definitions can be different or a bit different outside of the orchid arena.
I agree it is a bit ridiculous, due to lost in translation, or lack of 'standards'. But I guess we could just adopt terminology from say AOS ------ and if anything doesn't sound right, then AOS would/should clarify it, or fix it up.
For myself, I just assume that grex is what I described in the other post ------- a registered name for a cross between two different species, or a cross between two registered crosses (ie. cross between two plants of different grex).
And 'cultivar' can be defined mainly as any PARTICULAR unique plant (DNA-wise) and its clones/division that was produced/generated due to human-intervention.
For a species individual plant ---- with unique DNA (and its clones/divisions) ------ we probably should call it a cultivar too ------- regardless of whether the unique individual orchid (including its clones and divisions) was produced by human intervention or not.
And then there is that other probably unrelated word --- 'variation'. This word is linked to what ES was saying (I think) ------ variation being a subset within a species that has very similar characteristics/traits.
However ----- I reckon that definition of a 'species' (itself) can become wishy washy, as some people say that if one group of orchids is a variation of a species ..... then they may ask, where does the line/boundary start/stop ? ------ as how to determine when one variation of species is sufficiently different from the rest, such that the spin-off group (or subset) should be a different species?
And then ----- there is always the 'assumption' thing. ES is right in that - we can only go by assumptions ------ as lack of 100% certainty about any individual orchid's DNA will mean uncertainty about whether a particular plant is indeed what it is called (on the tag). A mutation could have occurred. Or even if the flowers do look like what is expected ------ there is still uncertainty about whether a mutation occurred, but not causing any 'visible' signs of mutation on the flower (but yet a mutation occurred - in which case the orchid would actually not be what it says on the tag).
I reckon that in general - which is what we usually do here in the forums is - we can comfortably talk about orchids by just using genus species, or genus grex, or genus species 'cultivar', or genus grex 'cultivar'.
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09-10-2020, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthPark
But I guess we could just adopt terminology from say AOS ------ and if anything doesn't sound right, then AOS would/should clarify it, or fix it up.
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While I would agree if the orchidboard was limited to orchids by western orchid horticulture standards (i.e. AOS, etc.) This question was posted in the Neofinetia section, with the OP specifically asking about Neofinetia cultivars.
Neos have a long history of cultivation using standards and traditions completely distinct from the AOS, and the naming methods are completely different, and neo naming standards have ended up closer to what's used outside of the western orchid horticulture world.
Because it was asked in the Neofinetia subforum I think it's important to not ignore the methods that have come to be used in naming Neos specifically.
Last edited by Hakumin; 09-10-2020 at 03:42 AM..
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09-10-2020, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin
Neos have a long history of cultivation using standards and traditions completely distinct from the AOS, and the naming methods are completely different. Because it was asked in the Neofinetia subforum I think it's important to not ignore the methods that have come to be used in naming Neos specifically.
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I'm pretty sure that the terminology: genus species, or genus grex, or genus species 'cultivar', or genus grex 'cultivar' applies easily and conveniently to Neof. as well, right?
The thing is ...... if some agreed-upon definitions are not made within a group conversation, regardless of group ------- it can lead to mis-understanding, mis-communication etc ...... then conversation could mostly become a waste of time.
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