Neofinetia Raikoumaru and Choukou

[Shoreguy]

Double tap pictures to enlarge

Just as Shojou and Shutennou are frequently associated, Neo hybrids Raikoumaru and Choukou are also associated, in this case by their solidly colored tepals versus just the colored highlights of the first pair, and being marketed in the US concurrently.

However Raikoumaru and Choukou have substantial differences, with the former being generally considered more desirable as reflected in its being priced twice as much. Raikoumaru is a smaller more compact plant with a more compact display of blooms.

Both are well worth growing unless you are a purist and only want pure neos and no Neo hybrids which is fine but you are really missing out on some great plants. Also being a purist is pretty hard to do as you cannot rely on the Meikan as years ago the background investigations for registration were not as stringent as today allowing for some Neo hybrids to be registered, examples being Shojou and Shutennou.

The first is Raikoumaru followed by two pictures of Choukou

[Neodex]

Beautiful flowers. I have a slight preference for the Choukou simply because the presentation of the flowers above the leaves is, for my taste, more elegant. The Raikoumaru flowers do look larger and fuller though.

I'm not a species purist, and I think it's exciting that neo hybridising will give us a whole range of miniature vandas in the future and that we've only seen the beginnings of this trend. I'm curious about your statement that Shutennou and Shojou are hybrids. Is there specific evidence that these two are hybrids or are you saying that all pink flowered types are hybrids ?

[Shoreguy]

Originally Posted by Neodex

I'm curious about your statement that Shutennou and Shojou are hybrids. Is there specific evidence that these two are hybrids or are you saying that all pink flowered types are hybrids ?

I have seen hints of pink in some evidentially pure neos so it’s possible some breeder has laboriously worked to exaggerate this color. Therefore I will not rule out the possibility of some pure neos with more than a hint of pink.

I do not have specific evidence that Shojou and Shutennou are hybrids but perhaps Hakumin does. All I can say is that it’s pretty commonly stated that they are not pure and I was just adding to that.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by Neodex

I'm curious about your statement that Shutennou and Shojou are hybrids. Is there specific evidence that these two are hybrids or are you saying that all pink flowered types are hybrids ?

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

I do not have specific evidence that Shojou and Shutennou are hybrids but perhaps Hakumin does.

Shutenno and Shojo are both 100% pure neo, and were found in the wild well before seed propagation of Neos became commonplace. Both varieties are recorded to have been discovered in the wild in Kochi prefecture prior to 1980. (Both varieties are also registered in Japan, and registration is strictly limited to pure neo species.)

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

All I can say is that it’s pretty commonly stated that they are not pure and I was just adding to that.

I have never seen any statements asserting that Shutenno and Shojo are hybrids. Can you point me to the sources/posts/comments that say this? It would be interesting to see where the incorrect information is coming from.

Choko on the other hand is a 100% certain hybrid.

Raikomaru, has some minor doubt floating around to its hybrid origin, but all reputable sources say that it is hybrid. My sources in Korea state that Raikomaru was originally bred by crossing Raizan with an unnamed red flower variety, with the majority saying that the unnamed parent was a hybrid.

[Shoreguy]

I recall reading that the registration process was not as rigorously investigated years ago resulting in the possible unintended registration of hybrids which would not occur today.

I seem to recall that this was in reference to Shojou and/or Shutennou but could be wrong.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

I recall reading that the registration process was not as rigorously investigated years ago resulting in the possible unintended registration of hybrids which would not occur today.

I seem to recall that this was in reference to Shojou and/or Shutennou but could be wrong.

I wrote what you're referring to: Fukiran Registration Requirements

I must have misread your statement about specifically Shutenno and Shojo's hybrid nature being controversial when I was answering your questions, although it seems that you had the idea that Shutenno and Shojo were hybrids even prior to that post.

No, Shutenno and Shojo's status as pure Neofinetia falcata is absolutely not controversial. It is accepted and common knowledge that they are both pure neo.

My intention in the original reply was to say that Shutenno and Shojo would not both have been registered under modern standards, not because their purity is at all questioned, but rather because they do not have extraordinarily exceptional characteristics in comparison to each other. Under current standards, in all likelihood, only one of the two would have been allowed registration. This is because they are practically identical in their characteristics, so Shojo having already been registered Shutenno would never have been registered afterwards, under current registration standards.

In any case, I have edited the original answer in that post to be clearer.

[Shoreguy]

Hakumin,

Thank you for clearing this up. Yes, it was that post of yours that I misinterpreted.

And it’s great that you have now edited it so there will be no misunderstanding by anyone in the future.

We on the Neofinetia OB depend on you.

[Shoreguy]

Hakumin,

Is it possible that Shojo and Shutennou are natural hybrids with non Neo ancestors in their distant backgrounds, and as such perhaps “grandfathered in” as Neofinetias? That is, if it’s been around long enough, it deserves species status.
Stated differently, if it was created long enough ago, it becomes part of the species since it existed before the species was described and if not ruled out in the species description.

Perhaps no species is “pure”, plant or animal, if you go back far enough.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and if it appears that way, I apologize. This whole thing is getting complicated.

[Hakumin]

Originally Posted by Shoreguy

Hakumin,

Is it possible that Shojo and Shutennou are natural hybrids with non Neo ancestors in their distant backgrounds, and as such perhaps “grandfathered in” as Neofinetias? That is, if it’s been around long enough, it deserves species status.
Stated differently, if it was created long enough ago, it becomes part of the species since it existed before the species was described and if not ruled out in the species description.

Perhaps no species is “pure”, plant or animal, if you go back far enough.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and if it appears that way, I apologize. This whole thing is getting complicated.

Shutenno and Shojo specifically? No, not possible in any meaningful way.

Honestly, the concept that Shutenno and Shojo are pure Neos is nothing that strange. With a bit of time, it wouldn't be that hard to breed a plant with that color starting with any standard wild-type neo by selfing it and selectively selfing/sibbing its offspring repeatedly for a number of generations.

[Shoreguy]

Originally Posted by Hakumin

Honestly, the concept that Shutenno and Shojo are pure Neos is nothing that strange. With a bit of time, it wouldn't be that hard to breed a plant with that color starting with any standard wild-type neo by selfing it and selectively selfing/sibbing its offspring repeatedly for a number of generations.

That doesn't rule out that they could be natural hybrids.

Perhaps all of this doesn’t really matter. Buy and enjoy the plant if you really like it, regardless of origin. That is how I have pursued the hobby.