a horribly ambitious and terribly long project

[gravotrope]

@Andrew & hcastil3- to think about the issue this way is interesting, since it could indeed threaten the species. but I also happen to think it is very important to save at least some version of this plant for the future. In 100 years it is hard to tell even if big cypress swamp will still exist the same way it does today, let alone the more coastal areas and forests of the southeast peninsula. I have so far only heard of gripp's ghost as a hybrid,(of lindenii and funalis) but it is not intergeneric. theoretically another member of the tribe could work, but who knows. releasing any product of this into the wild seems like a bad idea, but so does selling it...maybe just GIVE them away in person? people would keep it alive in cultivation if it ever worked.

The idea I have come up with to investigate the behavior of the pollinator moth is to obtain a pond apple tree (the host for the same larval species), or access to one that I(or someone) could mount the candidate plants on and see if any get naturally pollinated or crossed. but I don't know if I have space for another tree...there's two mature oxhorn Bucida, a cluster of areca palm, two coconut palms, a cluster of 5 alexander palms, two clusters of 3 Christmas palms, an uncommon relative of the alexander palm ptychosperma furcatum, an unknown olive cultivar, a young live oak, a ficus hedge, a Chinese fan palm, two bay rum trees, two sweet almond bushes, two zombia palms, a moujean tea bush, a rainbow eucalyptus, a "wild guave", a serpentine hill rain tree, and a philodendron bipinnatifidum already...

@ anonymouse - I agree it is just one of the most fascinating things about it. but I'm sure you can see how even just the size of the stem is something that limits its ability to bounce back from stress. even just mixing Dendrophylax species could lead to a bigger stem. repeatedly selfing a strain can make it weak, so this is also a way to have a fertile plant on reserve should their numbers take on a devastation.

it is tough though since the genes for having leaves and the genes for what kind of leaf (size, shape, thickness, the way it stores food and regulates growth within the leaf the stem or the roots, and when they are deciduous leaves what triggers their death, etc.) are not neatly simplified to this method of plant cultivation.

[Andrew]

I think breeding vigorous hybrids with all the charm of a hard to grow parent species has a lot of merit within the arena of cultivated plants. I'm just not convinced it's a good avenue forward for preserving wild populations. There is a rich history ecological problems caused by well meaning people trying to manipulate rather than conserve the environment.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Originally Posted by ovanoshio

@Andrew & hcastil3- to think about the issue this way is interesting, since it could indeed threaten the species. but I also happen to think it is very important to save at least some version of this plant for the future. In 100 years it is hard to tell even if big cypress swamp will still exist the same way it does today, let alone the more coastal areas and forests of the southeast peninsula. I have so far only heard of gripp's ghost as a hybrid,(of lindenii and funalis) but it is not intergeneric. theoretically another member of the tribe could work, but who knows. releasing any product of this into the wild seems like a bad idea, but so does selling it...maybe just GIVE them away in person? people would keep it alive in cultivation if it ever worked.

<parts snipped by Orchid Whisperer>

I said something like this before, as have several other posters, but I will re-state it so that it's clearer. In terms of conservation, what you are proposing is the mother-of-all-bad-ideas. Period.

Trying to "improve" a wild species by replacing it with some kind of hybrid is not strengthening the genetics of the original. It makes zero sense to try to breed into D. lindenii populations the ability to grow leaves; that does not strengthen D. lindenii, it just replaces it with some kind of artificial hybrid.

If you want to try making hybrids with D. lindenii, fine. Grow your hybrid at home, no problem, or sell them, give them away, put them in a tossed salad with croutons, etc., no problem; any of these options would be fine. Just keep them away from wild places.

You mention the Big Cypress Swamp and whether it will still exist in 100 years in the same way it exists now. That is the place that you can do the most good. Join your local chapter of the Nature Conservancy or similar organization, see what you can do to preserve habitat, including Big Cypress. Do everything you can to minimize your contribution to climate change (drive a smaller car, use mass transit, etc.). The key to preserving a species is saving it's habitat, not changing the genetics of the plant.

[gravotrope]

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

<parts snipped by Orchid Whisperer>

I said something like this before, as have several other posters, but I will re-state it so that it's clearer. In terms of conservation, what you are proposing is the mother-of-all-bad-ideas. Period.

Trying to "improve" a wild species by replacing it with some kind of hybrid is not strengthening the genetics of the original. It makes zero sense to try to breed into D. lindenii populations the ability to grow leaves; that does not strengthen D. lindenii, it just replaces it with some kind of artificial hybrid.

I agree with the part about conservation, and should more clearly state that it is not a goal to release it into the wild at all. It would be a more robust and vigorous plant, and exist in cultivation not swamps. It would be different from the parents for sure, but there's nothing artificial about it...it would still be a living thing...

but at the same time if its habitat is gone in even 200 years if you wanted to be technical about it then breeding lindenii for cultivation is also a bad idea because you can end up with genetically weaker plants.

and sadly, even with the entire coast of florida preserved as it is now by dykes or levees, there is no saving the habitat in its present location in the long term. the porous young limestone underneath almost the entire state will let water rise up from underground. Miami cannot plan anything for 2100, so they look at 2060 instead and even then it is a grim situation. do you think these swamps are much higher in elevation than Miami?

people are already changing the evolution of basically every species, so i ask you to please and respectfully act accordingly, because no part of this is destructive. just because an idea brings conflict, it doesn't have to become the mother of all bad ideas...really....


@Andrew - You are also correct, to me the most obvious example of that is how the Lymantria dispar dispar made it to New England...through an amateur entomologist trying to make silk. end result I have seen entire forests and hillsides completely defoliated in the spring (this only happened one year) though it was chilling and speaks to human influence (love it or hate it) changing things much faster than the adaptations that preserve life.

[Orchid Whisperer]

ovanoshio, I am basing my interpretation of your intent on your first post. When you are discussing increasing the vigor of the species to increase the chance for surviving snake traffic in the Everglades (I won't even get started on that idea), then I interpret your intention as somehow changing the plant to increase wild survival. In a later post you talk about whether a more visually vandaceous plant might, or might not, be better equipped for survival. That sure sounds like you intend to have the plant out in the wild, and pretty much all parts of that idea are destructive.

When you say that there is nothing artificial about the hybrid you are thinking of creating, you are incorrect. If a human being creates a hybrid, it is an artificial cross between two organisms that would not normally breed.

You asked in your first post for OG members to give opinions as to whether your idea was good, bad, crazy, not worth the effort, etc. You now have my opinions, but apparently they are not the opinions you were looking for.

If you really want to do something good for preserving the species, become involved in one of the mainstream habitat conservation organizations, or one of the orchid-specific conservation organizations (of which there are many). The Marie Selby Botanical Gardens (Link: Marie Selby Botanical Gardens | Sarasota FL | Selby Gardens) is a good place to start.

[gravotrope]

Nice I've heard good things about that place. I've only been to Sarasota once so far and happened to see the ringling place instead, but i remember his wife and selby were socialites together way back when.

to me there has to be artifice, like plastic for example, for something to really be artificial. intergeneric orchids don't seem artificial to me even though they are brought together from different regions and pollinated by people. this just speaks to the fact that for completely different reasons than bees, moths, hummingbirds, ants, and everything else that co-evolved with these plants, we too are pollinators.

Even though I agree with you on a lot of your points I have to challenge you also, since the idea has developed since the first post. a plant that would survive in the everglades habitat is a better way to put it, rather than actually having one out in the wild, because that would be destructive since they would be in direct competition. I agree that releasing it into the wild is a bad idea, destructive and that should not happen, but after that was brought up it changed to keeping it in cultivation, and still using a close genetic relative. just finding another swamp Angraecum larger than most Campylocentrum could have a lot of the same genes, but I've no fancy machines to tell.

I'm not picking a fight, just explaining myself more clearly. I always enjoy and respect people who share their opinions, and thank you for sharing them. I hope I have not been too critical. You are right about the point of conservation and competing species. I'm really saying the conversation seems different to me when the habitat could really be doomed.

[SOS]

Originally Posted by ovanoshio

since the idea has developed since the first post. a plant that would survive in the everglades habitat is a better way to put it, rather than actually having one out in the wild.

There is no shortage of orchids that will do this. A number of Angraecoids will probably not skip a beat.

[isurus79]

So I've read this whole thread and I have to say that the original premise that burmese pythons will somehow play a part in the extinction of Dend. lindenii completely absurd. Before you create some breeding program to "save" this species, you better be sure that they are actually in danger. To my knowledge, there are no orchids in danger of extinction because of mechanical damage caused by snakes. In fact, a friend of mine has a python in an orchidarium where the orchids are all miniature Bulbo species and the snake never touches them (seen here HD video: orchid vivarium rainstorm).

Next, if you're going to start a breeding program to save a species, never ever mention hybridizing it with another species. That will automatically bring a torrent of criticism, especially with a species like Dend lindenii which has a fairly large genetic population to draw from.

It seems like you are interested in crossing some species, so do it. End of story. Let us know how it goes. Just be sure to NEVER let your crosses get mixed into the wild populations.

[gravotrope]

Thank you for sharing isurus, it is definitely an imaginative concept! not sure about it's complete absurdity since it seemed possible at first, but now knowing more about how snakes distribute their weight across their entire length it seems far less likely, though not impossible...which excludes absurdness, though I appreciate the sentiment.

I guess the real idea is half conservation, half bio-art. And I agree wholeheartedly that any product should remain solely in cultivation so that the landrace species keeps its chance to survive despite human activity.

I used the imaginative concept as a jumping off point to ponder the highly specialized niche of the species, and also the serious future threat of all of its fragile habitat. That is the end result no matter how many false notions get thrown into the mix.

Here's another one
Since it would be technically impossible without years of genetic research and development and millions of dollars, I can only speak of the end goal: to approximate (by intergeneric breeding) a common ancestor for leafless plants and their Angraecoid relatives with leaves, and then get Dendrophylax into the mix. Any Dendrophylax. Flawed as this idea may be it could still work well as a template to then introduce lindenii and select for flower shape.

A plant that is an f1 generation intergeneric approximating this lineage would contribute the greatest amount of differing genes. This is why ALL intergeneric orchids are so vigorous and adaptable. But in crossing two strikingly different phyllotaxies more work may be required in ironing out the details. I am thinking Campylocentrum x Jumellea, but this could result in flowers too large and heavy for the spike that supports them and also happens to be years, maybe even a decade before real results are seen. I'm not even sure if I can obtain the parent Campylocentrum tenellum I would want to use, it is probably as rare as lindenii.

Also it is the one that has the most unique leaf I've ever seen...it has basically a bronze triangular leaf, and very small flowers.

I appreciate all of the comments, a lot of refinements have been made and will continue unless it really turns out to be illegal.

[orchidsarefun]

I'm not sure if I agree with your initial premise.
Have you established the reasons for the decline in the population ? Maybe they are being poached out of existence, rather than through habitat destruction or environmental change ? Maybe increasing the supply of the existing species, rather than mixing 2 species up, is a better solution for you to pursue ? Ironically, according to a propagator I know, this species is extremely easy to germinate and grow from seed. Prices are high because demand for them is high.

I read an interesting article recently about certain dendrobium species in South-East Asia. These are apparently becoming endangered as they are used in Chinese medicine. Now ANY dendrobium is being harvested in the "wild" as the canes are all so similar - and natural replacement can't keep up.
Its the same old story, if the demand is there, the natural resources all suffer.