Angraecum didieri x Ascocentrum garayi and other interesting crosses

[calvin_orchidL]

Saw this for sale on ebay but being north of the border has it's unfortunate limitations. Apparently one of the remnants of the hoosier hybridization efforts and a FASCINATING cross. I'm dying to see what this guy looks like, which got me thinking about different intergeneric angraecoid crosses.

Google searches don't turn anything up, so I thought I'd post the question here and see if anyone has images/experiences with these kinds of crosses: essentially, anything extending outside the normal range of the angraecum x aeranthes (ie has anyone seen an aerangis x angraecum cross before??)

I was surprised to find out after roaming a few boards that the idea of hybridization especially with relatively rare and endangered orchids (like the various aerangis and angraecum species) can be a touchy subject - I suppose it seems counterproductive to conservation efforts which aim to maintain large gene pools of pure species. Nonetheless, from a scientific standpoint, I think it's fascinating, especially when examining the potential of geographically isolated vandaceous species like the angraecoids to interbreed with other vandaceous genera like ascocentrum (from Asia!)

[SOS]

I have a bunch of their weird crosses at work, of which Im eagerly waiting to see strange results.

In the spirit of Leon's fantastic crosses I made a cross putting Eurychone rothchildianum onto a Aeranthes grandiflora flower. Could be neat!

[calvin_orchidL]

Originally Posted by SOS

I have a bunch of their weird crosses at work, of which Im eagerly waiting to see strange results.

In the spirit of Leon's fantastic crosses I made a cross putting Eurychone rothchildianum onto a Aeranthes grandiflora flower. Could be neat!

That sounds awesome! keep me updated on the development of the pod/seedligns

[Ross]

Calvin, I think I'm of the school that promotes preservation of the gene pool, especially for rare or threatened species. Now, I am not aware of currently threatened Angraecoides in collections, but I could be wrong.

I am not sure what would be gained with crosses such as you ask about. The genera are fairly similar in appearance and the blossoms are fairly similar as well.

[calvin_orchidL]

Originally Posted by Ross

Calvin, I think I'm of the school that promotes preservation of the gene pool, especially for rare or threatened species. Now, I am not aware of currently threatened Angraecoides in collections, but I could be wrong.

I am not sure what would be gained with crosses such as you ask about. The genera are fairly similar in appearance and the blossoms are fairly similar as well.

The main problem I foresee with the angraecoids is not from hybridization, but from the relatively limited gene pool that we have to start out with. With Malala no longer exporting to the states, the only source of plants from Madagascar are the remaining stocks from the now deceased hoosiers that other orchid vendors have gobbled up, and the occasional batch coming in from Europe. To the best of my knowledge, there are only a handful of people actually flasking angs, and the seeds are notoriously infertile, likely due to the genetic bottle neck. I myself am attempting this while I have the luxury of tissue culture facilities (two pods so far on aer. kirkii) Luckily, orchid boards like this enable world wide pollen exchange which should help breeding efforts immensely by expanding the gene pool.

While not listed on the IUCN red list, several species in cultivation are apparently considered threatened according to a report I found online directed to the CITES secretariat, including leonis and magdelanae (which are quite common in cultivation) as well as aer. spiculata, and kotschyana. I'm not sure the degree to which IUCN goes to catalogue and monitor species; with the disastrous environmental practices in Madagascar, I'd not be surprised if some angraecoids end up extinct before they can be properly catalogued.

As I mentioned, I'm interested in hybridization between genera that are dissimilar ie ascocentrum and angraecum...purely out of curiosity. You're right - hybrids between certain things is pretty pointless because they almost look identical. The argument that hybridization will take away from conservation efforts is based upon the assumption that people would rather grow the hybrids than the species, due either to increased ease of culture, or bigger nicer looking plants/flowers; this in turn stifles the demand for species, the chief driving force in orchid cultivation. However, it is also possible that the availability of easier to grow hybrids will help introduce more people to the world of angraecoids; from experience, most orchid growers in general tend to start off with hybrids and move towards species as they specialize. Perhaps this trait can be harnessed, with the use of hybrids angraecoids as 'stepping stones' so to speak into the cultivation of species?

[Ross]

I think I am in agreement. The main advantage to go back to original species (not always as found in nature, but original species) is reintroduction of "strength". What I mean by this is that constant breeding (even at the species level) sometimes introduces characteristics that may not be found in nature and that may contribute weaknesses to the gene pool. A non-orchid example might be "antique apples" or "antique tomatoes". While often seen as an "oddity", they can also serve to reintroduce certain strengths such as disease resistance to the crosses. Without preservation of the original species, either in nature or captivity, this would not be possible.

Good discussion thread. Would love to read more opinions. I'm sure there are some.

[SOS]

In relation to conservation, these intergeneric hybrids arent making a detrimental affect to species. There are quite a few people that do Ang seedlings. We did a sib of Ang. compactum and also sent a pod of Ang. equitans into the lab this year. When was the last time you saw one of those? I unflasked a couple hundred little Aerg. luteo alba v rhodosticta this year too. I attempted to self Eurychone galeandrae, with not avail (anyone have that plant!?)

On that note of selfing, I agree. This limited pool is not ideal by any means. Id be ecstatic if they had the variability of C. intermedia because I can name a handful of those varieties, not that all are found in nature but still, name me different forms of an angraecoid. Unfortunate as it is, I would rather try to preserve something like Eurychone galeandrae by selfing than waiting around to find another one to cross with it.

Commercially, there is a factor for all of this. Do we invest in non viable plants? Take Aeranthes henrici for a great example. I really want to do work with this species but havent been able to find one at all for the last 4 years. If I do go through everything and end up with a small population, do I sell them at their market worth and risk their expected demise? Or do I hang on to them reworking them over and over for years hopefully getting some strong 4N plants able to withstand the angraecoid lovers both masters and experts? Ideally the answer is to do the latter and pursue the philanthropic option, but that is a lot of investment and risk especially now.

Cal Orchid is supposed to do an import of Madagascan stuffs this next summer. Im looking forward and hoping I can still talk my way into the trip. I hope they use their CITES to its full potential.

PS - I will keep trying to fight limited gene pools and increasingly difficult to attain species by making seed pods. (and trying to make hybrids that are worth more than their weight in agar!)

[Country Gramma]

I like these conversations, being a biologist, even though I'm not yet into the physical implementation. I probably never will be as I've just started with orchids and am having enough to do learning about the different types and how to grow them.

Knowing that there are some of you trying to increase the gene pools is very gratifying and I will watch your progress with a keen eye.

Thanks for being willing to share your info and hopefully someone will have the plants you need to extend your research.

Karen