heres my plan, need opinions - Orchid Board

Swanwillow · #1 02-20-2007, 04:24 PM

ok, so I went through andy's orchids, and made a list.

what kind of list you may ask? since I'm eventually getting into a vivarium (this is for a terrarium) my list are mini orchids from Costa Rica and Panama.
My list has 12 orchids... All but 2 are 'shade' category. So I may cut my list down to 10 because of the other 2, or place those two at the very top of a terrarium

they do run the gambit of watering however. Many are daily watering types, one being watered 2-3 times/week, 5 labeled as 3-5 waterings a week. They all have the same temp ranges that I want... none need less than 80*F as their max... and I plan on the viv to be in the 70* range.
so, if you want my list (no, none are too easy to care for)
I have:
Epidendrum rousseauae
indirect light, 3-5 waterings a week
Masd, reichenbachiana
shade, daily watering
Masd. rolfiana
shade, 3-5 waterings/week
Masd. schroederiana
shade, 3-5
Masd. zahlbruckneri
shade, 3-5
Maxillaria wercklei
bright-shade, daily watering
Pleurothallis amparoana
shade, 3-5
Masd. erinacea (horrida)
shade, keep moist/daily watering
M. livinstoneana
shade, 2-3 waterings/week
M. seabrilinguis
shade, daily
Scaphosepalum calvellatum
shade, daily
Seaphosepalum endresianum
shade, daily

so, most are shade, all like it wet. The main point is that they are all from costa rica and panama.
The terrarium is a hex tank, and I plan on having a fair sized waterfall down the middle of the back of it, running into a pool of water (actually, the whole bottom of the tank, up 5 inches, will be full of water with large river rocks)

would the humidity be enough for watering? or spray from the huge waterfall? Should I invest more into a misting system also?
lights: 500-1500 light candles, what kinds of light put out that little amount?

I'll come up with more questions later I'm sure... those are the first ones.

oh, has anyone else done a terrarium with species only from one area?

Ross · #2 02-20-2007, 07:28 PM

OK, let's just dive right in since I am well along the way and a bit ahead of you (having already purchased many from Andy)

Let's talk about the terrarium first then the plants you'll need rather than other way around. The basic setup with waterfalls, etc. sounds fine. There will be lots of humidity if the top is closed. So you'd better get a small fan to move air somehow. For mine I opted to run a hole in the top section which is acrylic. Use ONLY 12 volt fans - even though there are lots of 110V models out there, they'll short out with the humidity. I purchased 4 of these Coralife 3-1/8" Cooling Fan Kit I use one inside tanks and one outside (more on that in a bit). The inside one is running 24/7 and helps dry off all the plants between mistings. You could just place fan in an opening in lid (or have a new acrylic lid cut along with the hole and mounting holes.) That should keep everything nice and breezy inside.

Misting: This is up to you. Misting by itself MAY NOT keep certain plants wet enough and in some cases may keep the plants too wet (especially ones in sphagnum in pots or baskets). Andy's Harealla's mounted on sticks will do just fine with heavy misting as long as roots don't dry out too much. My MistKing system runs with RO water using an interval timer set to run 8 seconds every two hours and this runs through another timer where I control length of day/night. So far every plant in the mist path stays moist to wet during day and dries out a bit at night when misters aren't running.

As to types of lighting, my tank is 30" from top to bottom and I use a bank of 4ea 48" T5 strip lights in individual reflectors. Therefore the external fan - I need to blow the heat away from under lights. This fan stays on during the "day" and off at "night". The T5s run WAY cooler than HID but are still warm. My light meter says between 500 and 600 FC about 1 foot away. This is as I expected starting with 2000FCs. My new tank will only be 24" high but much wider and I will be running a bank of 8 lamps and 4000FCs. There are lots of Compact Flourenscent fixtures (CF for short) and individual bulbs. You can even make your own fixture by retrofiting the top of your extisting tank (the hood). My favorite spot for the least expensive CF lights is Full Spectrum Lighting and Light Therapy I have about 15 of their lamps. By the way CF units are MUCH more expensive than straight tube fixtures, but probably fir the shape you plan better. This one --> 55w Compact Fluorescent Lamp puts out 3500 lumens or about 350FCs and you would need several to get 500FCs at the bottom of your tank. There's also --> Hydrofarm - Hydrofarm FLC125D 125 W Compact Fluorescent Bulb - Daylight - New Low Price I am not sure of the light out put of these units.

Now for the plants. It may be difficult finding enough seperate spp from the same area to satisfy your requirements if you plan to mist or grow under lights. Andy's watering requirements can be taken with a grain of salt with terrariums. When he says 3-5 waterings per week and keep moist in same combination, I would change that to daily watering and frequent mist/high humidity. For instance I purchase two different Cischweinfia which said keep moist/water 3-5 times per week. Even with daily dunkings (soaking) and frequent misting, they started dying off and refused to flower. They set buds, but the buds dried up. I moved them to terrarium in same baskets and water them maybe once a week (if that) but subject them to misting ever two hours and they are growing well. It's really hard to read the list he posts and make any defenite plans. Give them and call - you'll end up talking to Harry, his brother. Explain in detail your setup and let them be the judge. If you e-mail them, don't expect a speedy reply - sometimes it's weeks.

Lastly, will high humidity alone be enough for your plants? I doubt it. Even with all the mist and humidity I provide, there are drier sections of any terrarium (thankfully) where you may choose to grow a dendro or maxillaria that cannot tolerate wet feet. They'll still need to be watered somehow. If there are any other specific questions regarding your project, feel free to PM me and we can discuss.

Swanwillow · #3 02-20-2007, 08:28 PM

yup, looked through lighting, I'm just worried about overpowering low-light species. I have PC's over my reef fish tank, and thats low light under water... high light over air. if T5's are 'low' a foot down I'll feel better, since I found a set of 2 for 35 bucks. (I use Hellolights.com for my lighting needs-and every thing is waterproof) I think they have fans too, 15 watts good? I was figuring on a fan, at least to dry out the top and sides.

I've been looking at misting systems that will work... and I figured for the wetter ones, I may beable to situate the waterfall so that they get splash.

But I was figuring on daily misting. Been there done that

oh, pc=power compact... I have a set of 2 65 watt power compacts over my fishtank.
BTW, what color scale am I looking at? for growth, not necessarily for looks.

Ross · #4 02-20-2007, 09:09 PM

Remember, you need REALLY high output tubes for plants. For aquariums, most folks really are after effect - lighting effect. Plants want some really high light similar to sunlight. Now in shade outdoors, that means as much as 1500 foot candles. In full sun it can easily go more than 5000 foot candles! A bank of T5 lights that specs at 2000 Foot candles is AT THE TUBE SURFACE! A foot away will be 1/4 that or 500 FCs. Therefore you really need high output lights. Never sweat the high output. You can always shade the plants but it's hard to increase the light.

markr · #5 02-20-2007, 11:13 PM

Sounds like you've got some really good ideas and great advice. I'll simply suggest a little aesthetic consideration: instead of trying to cram so many different species into one space, how about focusing on just a few, perhaps some that contrast nicely with each other - say several low light specimens of one or two species for the bottom, and one or two high-light species for the upper areas. I think such a set up might highlight each individual species a little better and maybe look more natural. Doing it with the list of orchids you provided might run the risk of turning into a big jumble of plants with no central points of interest. I'm sure you could pull it off, but just something to think about.

terrestrial_man · #6 02-21-2007, 05:27 AM

Also I think that companion plants that do not overwhelm the orchids would be a plus to consider. Maybe some mini bromeliads, some mosses, some emersed aquatics.

Swanwillow · #7 02-21-2007, 08:01 AM

oh, in saltwater aquariums we go for light... not effect

its like a planted freshwater tank, but more light. Seriously, when you have a 250 watt metal halide over a little ten gallon aquarium, you know theres a problem. I'm not as big into the high-light corals, more low-light corals.. but heres a high-light coral tank, and its specs: Tank of the Month - February 2007 - Reefkeeping.com I can't spew out info on foot candles and such..

hmmm, I have a bromeliad thats sitting next to me I've been trying to ID... It won't take up much space. I can whittle down my list, no worries!!!

I can happily save my pocketbook that way... this is a starting list... really, it is!!

I'll learn bout foot candles, I will... gimme a few days

Ross · #8 02-21-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swanwillow

oh, in saltwater aquariums we go for light... not effect

its like a planted freshwater tank, but more light. Seriously, when you have a 250 watt metal halide over a little ten gallon aquarium, you know theres a problem. I'm not as big into the high-light corals, more low-light corals.. but heres a high-light coral tank, and its specs: Tank of the Month - February 2007 - Reefkeeping.com I can't spew out info on foot candles and such..

hmmm, I have a bromeliad thats sitting next to me I've been trying to ID... It won't take up much space. I can whittle down my list, no worries!!!

I can happily save my pocketbook that way... this is a starting list... really, it is!!

I'll learn bout foot candles, I will... gimme a few days

Let me give you a head start on foot candles. Most Flourescent lights are rated in lumens (a measurement of light output). The rating will be at a certain ambient temperature and at the glass surface (remember it is light output). To get foot-candles divide lumens by 10 (close enough) Now you also need to know light falls off (gets dimmer) as the square of the distance. So if a light puts out 2000 foot candles, plants at a distance of 1 foot only "see" about 500 of those. I've over-simplified this so see this site for more detail --> Lumens, Footcandles, Candlepower, Measuring Light Output

cb977 · #9 02-21-2007, 11:05 AM

Here's the Masd. zahlbruckneri in bud...the blooms are very cute

Tindomul · #10 02-21-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markr

Sounds like you've got some really good ideas and great advice. I'll simply suggest a little aesthetic consideration: instead of trying to cram so many different species into one space, how about focusing on just a few, perhaps some that contrast nicely with each other - say several low light specimens of one or two species for the bottom, and one or two high-light species for the upper areas. I think such a set up might highlight each individual species a little better and maybe look more natural. Doing it with the list of orchids you provided might run the risk of turning into a big jumble of plants with no central points of interest. I'm sure you could pull it off, but just something to think about.

I was just thinking the same thing. My Orchidarium has a big jumble cause lets face it folks, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. Setting up large groups of the same species or related species I think is better.

Ross has given you excellent advice. Maybe I missed it, what is the size and shape of your terrarium that you are planning? Also, once you start doing the hardscape (this is going to be a naturalistic terrrarium right?) you will find you have alot more types of microclimates. One area is dry, others never get dry, other have lots of light, others are dark, and some get air movement, others don't. You should definetly build first, buy plants later.

I mist my tank every morning by hand and make sure I wet everything. That is everyone who needs water gets it. With an automatic misting system, you won't get that assurance. You'll have to decide wheather thats a good thing or a bad thing.
Most orchids will do well without sphagnum moss in the humid environment of a terrarium. Haraella odorata, however, like the sphagnum moss, especially if you put it in a drier spot of your terrarium.
If you incorporate a misting system, I would run it in the early day hours, and I would run fans in the late afternoon and most of the night (though not all of the night, it might get too dry).
Good luck.