S/H PHAL PH SPIKES

[rick84]

Hello everyone, my name is Rick and I have 1 phal I bought from a local nursery. I have no idea what variation. I am awaiting some hydroponic culture pots in the mail. (the ones with water level guage) Untill they arrive, I have taken a 6" net pot and applied the same concept as the mail order pots. I am sure you all have seen them once or twice before so you get the idea.

To give you an accurate picture of what this plant has endured until now I can say-

Bought it about 6 months ago in bloom, It was healthy and the only one that wasn't sunburned. I kept it in the 3" clear pot it had came in. Allowed it to finish flowering and then chopped the spike all the way down to the 1st node. This was done in anticipation of encouraging new growth and for the soon to come transplant.

I fed the phal a kelp and complete B vitamin nutrient and new growth exploded. Leaves and airial roots. I made the transplant into a media mix of my own devise that consisted of crumbled cork, #4 perlite, hydroton, moss, coco coir fir and charcoal. The phal did great and this was about 2 months ago. Since then I have removed 2 yellow and wilted bottom leaves. The plant just keeps on cranking out new leaves. Seeing this vigor I assumed it was safe to put the plant in a S/H. So I again cut off 2 more leaves, these were not yellow at all and very healthy. But the new root growth needed to be placed lower in the S/H pot to adequately cover new roots.

At the time of transplant you will almost always trim dead roots away, I did too and almost all the original roots were dead. After the trim now the root mass is consisting of 8 roots that are all about 3.5" long and more new roots are still coming above the nodes of removed leaves. I am using a complete High quality hydroponic fertilizer known as " ADVANCED NUTRIENTS"

My nutrient solution is aproximatley
370 ppm
0.7 ec
5.56 ph
73F temp

My ambient temp is 78F, plant canopy is 80F and RH is 65%.

Lighting is 600w tunable full spectrum commercial LED.
This light is the real deal and is dialed in presently for encouraging vegetative growth.
425nm-470nm/ 2700K & 6500K whites/ 610nm, 630nm,660nm/ 720mn-740nm. FULL PAR with a CRI of 90.
I know that my lighting is adequate and not to intense. I am not using it at full power, mabey 20% power.

My problem is this phal goes thru a limp and firm stages. One day its leaves are firm and the other limp. I am testing my nutrient solution every day to moniter ec and ph spikes. I had put some moss on top of the hydroton to act as a vapor barrier if you will, to try to reduce evaporation of the nutrient solution. EC is jumping in a 24hr period more than .7 and ppm is the same jump. PH is also going from 5.56 to 7+. My nutrient have a PH buffer in them to eliminate this type of problem, what could be going on here.
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading -rick

[rick84]

Hello again, I see no one has responded yet with any input. I did a little thinking and this is what I have come up with thus far.
1) Buffer the De-Ionized H20 first, then add "PH Perfect" nutrients futher adding to the "self buffering" capabilities of the nutrients.

2) The issue with the leaves being limp and re-firming, I associate this with stress due to salts being high and improper PH. An adjustment in PPM/EC along with additional buffering should solve this issue.

3) The evaporation of nutrient combined with transporation in a sealed environment that has a 60-65%RH level will cause excelerated evaporation and transporation futher increasing the need for H20 and raising EC.

4) Most who use S/H will suggest to flush your plants of accumulated salts. My resolution to my problem again is the evaporation, so I think I will run the plant in a feed, water / feed, water schedual. I feel by doing this I can rinse down the accumulated salts mixed with plain water, should put me on more of a consistent matainence of the EC levels.

5) I re-adjusted the circulation fans. One of them is blowing at a 10x20 prop tray that has a inch of H20. This should add more RH.

[WhiteRabbit]

Sorry, I can't help, but I'm sure that after the holiday, if not sooner, someone will be able to.

[Ray]

I think you're making assumptions that are not entirely valid.

An EC of 0.7 will give most fertilizers a concentration of about 100 ppm N, (MSU WW 0.68, MSU RO 0.8, K-Lite 0.71 for 100 ppm N) but a considerably higher TDS - at least twice what you stated. What is the formula of this "Advanced Nutrient"?

Your pH of 5.56 is fine, so no buffering is really necessary.

I suspect that the limp/turgid thing is merely due to transpiration rate overwhelming the uptake of water. You have a compromised root system (1-trimmed, and 2-not optimized for S/H conditions), and the plant is unable to take up sufficient water to meet its needs.

Stop using the stimulants, back off on the fertilizer content, and relax. Any other "chemical adjustments" you are contemplating are unnecessary, and are not going to help.

[rick84]

RAY--
I am so very happy you had replied to my thread, I have been lurking around here for months as a guest and tho there are lots of experts on this forum, I seek ad value your advise the most.

The nutrients I speak of are called- Grow, Micro, Bloom and they are manufactured by Advanced nutrients. They are a new formulation from the old, that incorporates a "PH PERFECT" technology that maintains a optimal PH that's preferred by the plant in a specific growth phase, Veg/Bloom. These nutrients are formulated to be used with purified water that has a value of 0. All plants based on the nutritional needs, actual useage of minerals and growth phase, will excreet through their roots, altering nutrient acidic or alkaline. This coupled with evaporation and transporation can drastically fluctuate PH and lock out nutrients all together. Now, the EC will rise of course and water level decreases, and to fix this problem the manufacture states to "top-off" with 1/2 strength nutrient to maintain proper EC, PPM, PH and H20 levels. Water I use is always de-ionized with a value of zero. The manufacture says zero preferred but non-de ionized purified, with no more that a ppm of 12 is sufficient. Also for plants that have a higher ca/mg requirement, the nutrient solution to be used needs cal/mag additive.

For more info visit: advanced nutrients.com

Back to my actual usage of them. The bottle says for transplants or seedlings use 1ml/L. I use .5ml/L and that is not enough to maintain the PH PERFECT hype so initial buffering is needed. At 1ml/L and UP, the nutrient maintains its PH. Also full money back guarantee by the company. These nutrients and all the additives a very pricey, but very high quality. I am a huge hydroponic gardener and that is the nutrient I use on everything. Soil too!!

But I will most certainly take your advise and stop the use of additives. I would like to say however that since yesterday and the adjustments I made to the grow tent and nutrients, the plants has remained firm and actually gained some lift in the leaves. Hopefully progress continues.

[Discus]

I suspect as your roots grow, as Ray suggests, your firm/limp leaf cycle will sort itself out. Maintaining a higher RH will also help, of course.

I'm not familiar with any symptoms of pH fluctuations doing that - but water stress certainly will. Once your phal roots get used to a particular cultural "terroir" stick to it - each change (particularly each significant change like from a potting mix to a "semi"-hydroponic mix) will need new roots to grow optimised to that cultural environment and set the plant back.

I also like the idea of "tinkering" with culture, but you're better off getting a regular regime and then seeing if you can gradually improve on that, rather than flip-flopping all over the place all the time.

Good luck

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

You say you're monitoring your pH and EC over a 24 hour period, but how often are you doing so, and is it always at the same time of day etc?

[rick84]

[QUOTE=Ray;587061



You have a compromised root system (1-trimmed, and 2-not optimized for S/H conditions), and the plant is unable to take up sufficient water to meet its needs.
.[/QUOTE]


I was under the assumption that when making the switch to S/H the existing roots are expected to fail. The medium that the phal was in previously was a hydroponic mixture that had wicking properties and maintained even, adequate moisture. The roots that presently remain were produced in a similar environment to a S/H just not in straight hydroton.

But I guess It makes perfect sense for the roots to fail again since a new medium is a new environment and the plant needs to adjust.

[Discus]

I suppose it's plausible that you could dehydrate a plant with overly concentrated nutrients, but I can't imagine that the plant would then be "firm" the next day on the same regime.

[rick84]

Originally Posted by Discus

Good luck

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

You say you're monitoring your pH and EC over a 24 hour period, but how often are you doing so, and is it always at the same time of day etc?

Yes, always with the first hour of "light on".

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Discus

I suppose it's plausible that you could dehydrate a plant with overly concentrated nutrients, but I can't imagine that the plant would then be "firm" the next day on the same regime.

Very true, if the mineral salts are higher than what the plant currents has within it, it has a counter effect and dehydrates the plant of nutrients. Always start out on the low side and work your way up based on plant response.

[Discus]

Wow, these guys are almost as hyperbolic as the superthrive people. Grow Micro Bloom: Best pH Perfect Plant Nutrient for your Hydroponic Plants

What units is your EC measured in?