Seaweeds may drastically lower PH to dangerous levels?

[Ray]

Originally Posted by DavTom

OK, Ray. Sorry I could have stopped this conversation earlier, but this did not come clear to me from your previous posts. I wrongly thought you had checked only the PH and not also the H3O+ concentration.

One last point still related to PH. What do you think about low PH and micronutrients toxicity? Some microelements (in particular iron and manganese) become drastically more available for plants uptake at lower PH and this may easily lead to toxicity. Frankly speaking, I do not know if this has a dependency with H3O+ concentration.

What are your thoughts about this? Did you do any tests, or you simply assumed there is no problem because your plants are doing fine since a long time?

Dav

I rely mostly on my observation of healthy growth, but it is my understanding that 1) micronutrient toxicity occurs at extreme pH levels only, 2) solution pH is quickly “adjusted” in the rhizosphere, and probably most importantly, 3) the concentration of those elements are included in fertilizers in trace amounts to provide the necessary masses without overdosing them.

Most of the time, when trace element toxicity is encountered, it is when they are applied excessively via soluble trace element mixture, in addition to what is provided in the “base” fertilizer.

[DirtyCoconuts]

I think there is also an acidity case alkalinity issue.

Plain water will change a lot more than any solution that is already at all buffered.

I use pure rain water with a homebrewed batch of Inococur and k lite every water. Monthly kelpmax. I have only done ph testing maybe yearly. I don’t really worry since, as Ray said, I don’t change much.

[Roberta]

There's Paphs and then there are Paphs... Maudiae-types can indeed bloom on small plants, and spikes are pretty quick to develop. Then there are the mutiflorals that don't even think of blooming until they are big with multiple fans, take 3 years from the start of a fan to rooting to blooming, and take several months to develop a spike to flowering. (Thinking of Paph rothscildianum or sanderianum... 10-15 years or more from seedling to blooming size) Enjoy those Maudia types!

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by Roberta

There's Paphs and then there are Paphs... Maudiae-types can indeed bloom on small plants, and spikes are pretty quick to develop. Then there are the mutiflorals that don't even think of blooming until they are big with multiple fans, take 3 years from the start of a fan to rooting to blooming, and take several months to develop a spike to flowering. (Thinking of Paph rothscildianum or sanderianum... 10-15 years or more from seedling to blooming size) Enjoy those Maudia types!

Thanks Roberta, good to know...
But I think that I will love the Paphs. Their flowers appear somehow royal to me...but also a bit mysterious.


Dav

Dav

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

that is true Ray but you are possibly making it sound like DavTom should provide better care when I think he seems to be doing really well.
Young plants flowering for the first time will never flower as long as an older more mature plant..

Thanks, I did not find anything wrong in Ray's reply.

Dav

---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ray

Most of my collection is paphs and phrags - they get a monthly Kelpak treatment all year.

I will be potting up some deflasked paph seedlings tomorrow. They are currently submerged in a Kelpak + probiotic bath overnight.

I have got a Bulboph. (Senne Frost) that is not in good shape. When I repotted it in S/H it did not have very healthy roots. But maybe another reason why it is struggling is that the roots are quite horizontal (i.e., not deep at all) and they probably do stay in the least moist layers of the pot. I have removed some leca from the pot and now the roots are much closer to the reservoir.

Do you think that a bath in seaweed + probiotics may help? If so, as you may remember from other posts, I do not have Kelpak and Quantum, but I have a generic seaweed product and on Monday I will get EM-1 probiotics. What dosage should I use with respect to the instructed doses in the labels and for how long should I keep it (fully immersed, leaves included?) in the solution?

Thx,

Dav

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ray

Well…. That certainly wasn’t meant as a criticism of Davide’s cultural practices, but as an observation of the progression of my own! (I may have been growing orchids for 50 years, it that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to do it wrong sometimes!). Davide and I have had enough direct conversations that I expect he understands that.

Sure, no worries at all.

Dav

[Ray]

Originally Posted by DavTom

I have got a Bulboph. (Senne Frost) that is not in good shape. When I repotted it in S/H it did not have very healthy roots. But maybe another reason why it is struggling is that the roots are quite horizontal (i.e., not deep at all) and they probably do stay in the least moist layers of the pot. I have removed some leca from the pot and now the roots are much closer to the reservoir.

Do you think that a bath in seaweed + probiotics may help? If so, as you may remember from other posts, I do not have Kelpak and Quantum, but I have a generic seaweed product and on Monday I will get EM-1 probiotics. What dosage should I use with respect to the instructed doses in the labels and for how long should I keep it (fully immersed, leaves included?)

I cannot tell you the dosage to use, but manufacturer/label recommendations are likely not risky.

The reason for total immersion is because, with no roots, the plants cannot easily take up much of anything, so the extra exposure can help.

Do not let the solution get cold while the plants are soaking. I forgot to move my paph seedlings from the garage work are into the house, and they got into the upper 40’s(F), and sustained some leaf damage.

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by Ray

I cannot tell you the dosage to use, but manufacturer/label recommendations are likely not risky.

The reason for total immersion is because, with no roots, the plants cannot easily take up much of anything, so the extra exposure can help.

Do not let the solution get cold while the plants are soaking. I forgot to move my paph seedlings from the garage work are into the house, and they got into the upper 40’s(F), and sustained some leaf damage.

Thanks, should I keep it immersed for 12h or more?
Minimum temp at night is 65 F (18 C), so that should be fine I guess.

Dav

[Ray]

Originally Posted by DavTom

Thanks, should I keep it immersed for 12h or more?
Minimum temp at night is 65 F (18 C), so that should be fine I guess.

Dav

I don’t know that 12 hours is really necessary

[thefish1337]

Originally Posted by DavTom

---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------
Do you think that a bath in seaweed + probiotics may help? If so, as you may remember from other posts, I do not have Kelpak and Quantum, but I have a generic seaweed product and on Monday I will get EM-1 probiotics. What dosage should I use with respect to the instructed doses in the labels and for how long should I keep it (fully immersed, leaves included?) in the solution?

Thx,

Dav

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

EM-1 is a good product as long as its manufactured by an approved maker by the EMRO (EM research organization), make sure it has an expiration date as it will not be as effective when older. It's a mixture of lactobacillus, yeasts and photosynthetic bacteria. You can look online how to multiply it by fermenting it with molasses and can amplify 1L into 20L of solution. Keep in mind that you must always ferment with the original manufactured product because the ratios of organisms will drift over time and the product will not be reproducible. The amplified product is good for about 3-4 months in the fridge.

[Roberta]

A thought with regard to the Bulbophyllum... is it staying wet enough? They need air around the roots, but most also like being WET. Ray can advise on managing semi-hydro to achieve that, since I don't grow that way.

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by Roberta

A thought with regard to the Bulbophyllum... is it staying wet enough? They need air around the roots, but most also like being WET. Ray can advise on managing semi-hydro to achieve that, since I don't grow that way.

Hi Roberta,

Indeed, I will keep it more wet. I suspect the roots were not deep enough to get enough moisture in my s/h pot.

Dav