SH test appears to be failing with two phals?

[kvet]

Hi!

Several months ago I purchased two little phalawhatchamacallits with the intention of converting them to SH to be a learning experience. I've got background in a nearly-successful hydroponic tomato setup for mom many years ago (sadly went south when the rats raided the plant and ate the fruit), and this seemed like a fun experiment. Also, I had two nice looking glass containers I wanted to use, but boo, the glass was too thin and shattered as I tried drilling drain holes. Therefore, I stuck with mason jars.

The phalIcantspellits were infested with mealy bugs, which I caught early and took care of before they could spread to my other houseplants.

I left the phals alone until the blooms dropped. One had also just begun new leaf growth, and both looked very crowded for their little plastic-shot-glass-sized containers. Transplant began roughly three months ago, I followed basic steps, cleaned up the old media, roots, etc. One had a huge tangled mess, the other seemed okay. Sprayed with H2O2, a little diluted IPA, physan 20. Soaked, dried, planted into disinfected new hydroton.

Since then I've followed watering with very dilute orchid fertilizer and kelp goo weekly (fill to brim flush), full distilled water flush every 3-4 weeks. I tried one round with physan 20 flush. When the issue first showed up, I tried spraying any exposed roots and leaves with distilled water every couple days, being careful not to let any roll down into the center - this seemed to do nothing, so I stopped.

Now three months later, for about 2-3 weeks, the leaves have become wrinkly, and look like they are about to get droopy. Research suggests the problem is either too dry or too wet. HAH, this reminds me of sourdough and judging whether you over or underproofed the dough

Light-wise, they get filtered morning sun, and are in a bright room overall. My other, larger phal, is in a medium bark medium and doing quite well.

Temps have been moderate to warm here in coastal so cal until last night.

Does SHCS syndrome (SH Conversion Stress) usually last this long? Maybe something else? Should I just go back to bark, since it's working well (even my pineapples love the bark)?

Thank you for your time!

[SouthPark]

In photo #4 ----- it just appears that the roots might be soft -- or rotting, degrading.

I wouldn't have expected that to happen. Have you got the orchid in a place where the air-circulation is very good? Good air-movement will be very nice. Avoid still-air environment if it is in one right now.

At this point, definitely take the plant out and check the roots for any mushiness. A good cleanup of that is recommended (if mushy). Maybe allow the roots to dry up a bit. Some new roots are developing up the top, right?

[Subrosa]

Everything you mention about the care sounds good. But you didn't mention temperatures. I suspect they're too low.

[neophyte]

cold roots can make an orchid sad. :P
but I think the main thing is that the old roots of the Phalaenopsis are simply not adapted to the environment of s/h. usually the roots of orchids adapt to their immediate environment as they are still growing, and after a while they are unable to change. this is why it is strongly advised to re-pot Cattleyas only during periods of new growth. it may be the case that the old roots of the Phalaenopsis are not suited to s/h and you may need to wait until new roots develop. unless the orchids are drastically suffering, i think you should wait. next time, see if an orchid does better if you re-pot it in s/h when it's just sending out new growths.

[Orchidking]

that is not how I do semi-hydro and looks like a recipe for disaster.

The leca should be damp at all times and the roots should never be sitting in stagnant water.

I achieve this by using wicking microfiber cloths that are glued to the bottom of the pot. They are suspended in water to keep the leca wicking water but the roots are never in water.

In yours the drainage holes are half way up your pot, even if you have holes at the bottom I can't see how you can keep that moist enough without keeping the roots at the bottom wet

Edit: looking over the pictures again I would not trust the state your roots are in now. If it was me I would keep it barerooted and spray it lots - cut away any roots that turn mushy. That plant needs a few months of TLC

[camille1585]

It sounds like you either didn't time the transition perfectly right (should be when brand new roots are actively growing, which doesn't necessarily happen at the same moment as new leaf growth), or you are growing them too cool. Phals don't like having cold feet, and the evaporative cooling that happens in S/H will lower the temperature of the root zone below their liking if the plants are not in a warm enough environment.

I would not switch back to bark at this point, it may stress the plant further. Do you have a heat mat? That would keep the roots warm and help encourage new root growth. You could try misting the exposed roots/ base of plant again, I've frequenty noticed an explosion of root growth on my Phals if I mist daily for a couple weeks.

Originally Posted by Orchidking

that is not how I do semi-hydro and looks like a recipe for disaster.

The leca should be damp at all times and the roots should never be sitting in stagnant water.

I achieve this by using wicking microfiber cloths that are glued to the bottom of the pot. They are suspended in water to keep the leca wicking water but the roots are never in water.

In yours the drainage holes are half way up your pot, even if you have holes at the bottom I can't see how you can keep that moist enough without keeping the roots at the bottom wet

Edit: looking over the pictures again I would not trust the state your roots are in now. If it was me I would keep it barerooted and spray it lots - cut away any roots that turn mushy. That plant needs a few months of TLC

What he is doing is absolutely correct, and it is the original, tried and tested method, that the majority of people use. The leca stays damp though wicking of the water in the reservoir below the holes, and it's not a problem at all if the roots grow into the reservoir. If I recall correctly, how well it wicks depends on the sort of leca, grade of leca and relative humidity. Stangant water is also not an issue, as long as the reservoir is properly flushed at every watering.

You are doing things differently, but it's always good to keep in mind there are many ways to successfully achieve the same thing.

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[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by Orchidking

that is not how I do semi-hydro and looks like a recipe for disaster.

The leca should be damp at all times and the roots should never be sitting in stagnant water.

I achieve this by using wicking microfiber cloths that are glued to the bottom of the pot. They are suspended in water to keep the leca wicking water but the roots are never in water.

In yours the drainage holes are half way up your pot, even if you have holes at the bottom I can't see how you can keep that moist enough without keeping the roots at the bottom wet

Edit: looking over the pictures again I would not trust the state your roots are in now. If it was me I would keep it barerooted and spray it lots - cut away any roots that turn mushy. That plant needs a few months of TLC

I find that when a plant has been growing well for long enough in s/h that the roots grow down into the water on their own.

[Ray]

Some good advice above. I suspect your primary issue is poorly-timed repotting.

Roots do not "convert" or "transition" to a new environment well. Instead, they must be replaced with new roots that grow optimized for the new environment. With your tomatoes, that was easy, as they're such fast-growing plants and the extent of the root hairs means it can take up water relatively easily. Your phals are struggling to do so.

At this point, the best thing to do is warm them up, stop feeding, and I don't know what kelp product you have, but if it hasn't stimulated a lot of root growth so far, I'd dump it too.

Also, and this is just my opinion, stop with all of the repotting treatments, as they accomplish little. Soak, unpot, remove the medium, trim the dead roots, and pot it up. Hydrogen peroxide and Physan treatments really don't add much more than stress to the plant's roots.

[kvet]

Hi all, thanks for the responses. Answering some questions:
- ambient temps have ranged unpredictably between low 60F to mid 80F over last three months; only last couple days it turned cold enough to require a sweater. RH has been hovering around 63-65%.
- there's a light, indirect breeze where I'm keeping these jars.
- I have a seed mat, it's actually used to warm up my wine fridge to proof doughs.

Camille: I think O.K. had been looking at different photos, or, saw the lack of drainage holes in the photo of phal #2 where I show the green roots against the glass, and probably drew an assumption that there are none. Both jars have a pair of holes, just under 2 inches from the bottom. Total height of the mason jars is about 5 inches. For O.K.: the hydroton are moist up to just about the last row.

The research and resources available here and elsewhere did prepare me for some of the roots to die off, that has been expected. It's the wrinkling I'm worried about, after 3 months.

The phal with the several, smaller leaves and stronger root system did have a couple new roots when I moved over to SH; it also had fewer roots to deal with. Phal #2 (with the smushed green roots against the glass) had a heavy root system, lot of "breaks" in the roots, where they were solid from the core, then kind of mushy revealing the inner string, and then the last 1-2 inches of the ends were all healthy looking. I hadn't seen anything like that before so I left them alone, and those are the ones that look mushy now I think.

Based on all your responses, I will do the following:
- mist a little at least daily
- stop with kelp and orchid fertilizer solution for now
- setup the seed mat; need to find a place here that has bright, filtered light, and an electrical outlet

Follow-up questions:
1. I am very tempted to take out at least phal #2, and clip the mushy roots, then re-seat it in the jar. Can/should I do this?
2. It was difficult potting both phals in the jars 3 months ago, as their roots belled out to similar width of the jar - should I consider a slightly larger vessel?

Re-seating #2 seems important not only because of the apparently mushy roots, but also I just found a couple mealy bugs on it again, looks like my first treatment didn't catch all the critters inside the crown, ugh. Re-seating would let me get spray into the nooks and crannies easier.

Thank you all for your help and support

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by kvet

I am very tempted to take out at least phal #2, and clip the mushy roots, then re-seat it in the jar. Can/should I do this?

Definitely recommended. Mushy is most likely breaking down, perishing, and rotting. Remove the mushy bits. You could probably leave stringy bits (inside) if they're still intact. Wash the plant off.

As for hydrogen peroxide - definitely don't use that on roots anymore. It probably won't kill roots - but I think it really does set the roots and the plant back if you put hydrogen peroxide on the roots. Whoever started this practice and recommendation to begin with - I don't think they should have started it in the first place.