Naming of new hybrids

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by Jo Ann

Just curious how many of us here can afford to be “Orchid Snobs” ? I can’t… but I still enjoy growing what I can…I would love to get to the advanced stage beyond pot plants but unfortunately I have what is called a family and a mortgage so it’s a little hard to convince the bank that you would rather spend your money on a fancy species Orchid then to pay them…I haven’t been able to convince the family that food should be considered an option either not to mention gas prices and so on and so on…I guess I am a contributor to the hybrid chaos…

sorry Des if this got off your topic of naming hybrids…

Don't be so defensive. This isn't about money or economic standing. I'm a broke college student. I have rent and bills and books and tuition.

This is about learning the plants and learning what is and is not good (or at least what you do an do not like), horticulturally. There are plenty of vendors out there that sell wonderful things for low prices. Before I lost my old collection, I had slightly under 2000 plants, and most of those were purchased for 10-20 dollars. All named, most species, many very good examples of those species. You gotta learn to know what to look for. For me, I spend a lot of time researching awards. When you know award trends, you get to where you can see quality. Not just in a bloom, but you can predict, at least to a degree, the quality outcome of a well-bred seedling. I recently bloomed an AM/AOS quality C. walkeriana. I had high expectations for it because it is a tetraploid and about five generations line bred from very very good australian stock. Unbloomed seedlings of good breeding are a wonderful way to build a quality collection for relatively cheap.

Meanwhile, by continuing to buy pot-plant orchids, you are contributing to the problems that cause an increase in price of non-pot-plant orchids. Speaking as an occasional and aspiring breeder of orchids, it is *very* hard to compete with a breeding operation that takes up ACRES of space and produces nothing more than pretty mutts.

My snobbery is not based on economics, trust. I grew up in a friggin' trailer, for chrissakes. All I'm saying is, if you are going to spend $20 or $10 or whatever on a plant, why not do so with a reputable vendor who can actually give you real advice and insight into the plant? TO buy from Home Depot or Lowes or Walmart just gives your money to the big-box stores that are slowly but surely destroying all innovation, originality, and individuality in the American marketplace.

Daylillies were mentioned, earlier. My great aunt has been rather a local breeder of note in daylillies down in Houston for some time. The absurd effciency of cloning programs, these days, destroy her business and require her to raise prices on new cultivars because she's only gonna get one or two seasons to sell someting and try to make a profit off of it. If the thing is any good, it's liable to have the ever-lovin bejeezus cloned out of it in a few years and then she'll be seeing great sweeps of the thing in beds all over the place with no regard whatsoever to all the time, effort and bed space she spent blooming out a seed capsule (which, incidentally requires MUCH less time and space than orchids).

Mind you, I recognize that pot-plant orchids are how most people get into orchids. I think it is wonderful that orchids need no longer be a hobby only for the very well-off. However, at some point one has to move on from just pretty flowers and start getting below the surface.

-Cj

[Orchidflowerchild]

Actually, I suppose about a third of my collection, toward the end was seedlings, most purchased at quite low prices. Also, a considerable number of species, including my Tolumnia and rupiculous Laelia collections were bought from foriegn vendors at shows for $5-8 apiece. Sorry about the earlier overestimation.

My point is, it's all about finding the bargains and making friends who have similar tastes to you. Building an orchid network is a HUGE benefit of getting more into the hobby and joining a local orchid society, or even AOS. That, i think, is probably the best way to build a really spectacular collection. Know people who grow near you. They are often quite eager to share spare divisions and such.

For the record, I worked through high school building that collection. Sure, there were some extravagant purchases, because I am an orchid fiend and I had very little personal expense, being in high school, when I built the collection, but really, a significant number of the collection was built through buying seedlings in compots or in batches of five or so, blooming them out, and trading them to other orchid society members.

(Also, when you become a regular customer of a good orchid vendor, they start to do things like tossing in bonus plants or marking things down for you. Try to get a HEALTHY plant at a dicount or a bonus plant from Home Depot.)

-Cj

[goodgollymissmolly]

Gosh darn, Jo Ann, I never mentioned anyones finances. People list their new acquisitions here on the forum all the time and no one takes offense to what they chose to spend. That's a purely personal matter. BTW, I never mention my acquisitions, never have, never will.

My point is actually that you can get more value for the same money by buying identifiable plants from sources that can help you later with information and advice.

I like Lowes. I own a lot of Lowes stock, but I don't buy plants there because they do not know and care dip about what they are selling. Local nurseries, more often than not, are exactly the same. They are just retail lots that buy from wholesalers and sell to the public. Businesses with low barriers to entry are the first to fail and Lord knows nurseries fall into the category of gas stations. Usually they are in the same category as Christmas tree vendors.

Identifiable orchids are a pleasure to own, retain their value, and actually appreciate over time.

I don't know Cj from Eve, but from her posts she's 24 and a college student. I'm 66 and retired (and thank the pooper I don't ever have to be a college student again). Where else could we meet to agree on a subject like this? A bar I guess, but she wouldn't pay me any attention. No one is trying to insult anyone, educate, persuade, convince...those might be better words.

[shakkai]

Hmm... where to begin here??

On the one hand, I have mostly species in my collection. On the other, I have some very nice NOIDs from the local supermarkets and garden centres. (See http://www.orchidboard.com/community...ing-phals.html and http://www.orchidboard.com/community...rket-phal.html)

Mainly I am responding to this because I wanted to say that one of the things that I LOVE about this forum is that everyone shares their new finds and we can all share in the excitement of 'the new addition' whether its ours or not. I really, really enjoy seeing what everyone else buys, trades for, finds, or is given!!

The second thing that I LOVE about this forum is that there is no difference in enthusiasm shown for any orchids that are shared by members. Be they awarded species clones, someone's little seedling with one flower, a spectacular specimen plant, or a NOID from the 'box' store. I think this equanimity is super!!

Just think about it. Awarded plants are awarded because they are judged to be superior in some way. If that quality is readily apparent to all, then the plant speaks for itself and will become an addition to an ever increasing wish list for those that perhaps started out with a couple of NOID Phals.

I have a good number of nice miniature species that actually cost me a lot less than the pot plant Phals I see a lot at the garden centre, so I think that this discussion isn't really about $$. It seems like its just personal preference - as with most other things! Some people prefer species, and some people will only grow species. Some people prefer hybrids and will only grow hybrids. Some people only like pretty flowers that are easy and adaptable in culture. Any and all are just personal preferences, and none are any 'better' than the others!

Which brings me to my last point - as far as orchids go, I think.

On the one hand, I completely agree that the plants being raised for the 'throw away' pot plant market leads to a sad state of affairs, for many of the reasons already given. But, on the other hand, many, many people would never have the initial interest to go to a specialist orchid nursery and buy a plant. However, that bright, pretty thing on the shelf calling out to you may just be the first step toward a life-long hobby and appreciation of of this wonderful family of plants.

Off-topic: I also hybridise daylilies, and the costs of new introductions makes the price of orchids pale in comparison! From what I'm aware of, micro-prop daylilies are not generally accepted by daylily collectors - though they no doubt are used quite often in 'landscaping' designs where the individual identity of the plant is of little or no concern. I don't think that small back-yard hybridisers could ever 'make a living' just from selling daylilies, but it doesn't seem to me that the market for collectors as been impacted much by these 'landscape' plants.

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by shakkai

Off-topic: I also hybridise daylilies, and the costs of new introductions makes the price of orchids pale in comparison! From what I'm aware of, micro-prop daylilies are not generally accepted by daylily collectors - though they no doubt are used quite often in 'landscaping' designs where the individual identity of the plant is of little or no concern. I don't think that small back-yard hybridisers could ever 'make a living' just from selling daylilies, but it doesn't seem to me that the market for collectors as been impacted much by these 'landscape' plants.

Yeah, those new intros...holy harkin heck! I've seen some (admittedly very nice) going for over $300 (I just cannot justify that kind of expense on something that the damn squirrels will dig up). It makes sense, when you think about the fact that in the first offering, a daylily is either being divided or released in a rather small batch of clones. But can you imagine being the person that introduced 'Stella d'Oro'? Wonder how much that one went for on first intro. Of course, I remember when Stewart Orchids was the only place selling the first mericlones of Blc. Goldenzelle 'Lemon Chiffon' AM/AOS. A seedling mericlone was $75-90, depending on pot size.

Now, of course, I have a mericlone of 'Lemon Chiffon' that I spent under ten dollars on at, of all places, Home Depot (an impulse buy, what can I say?). Of course, by now it is not at all unlikely that I have a *WAY* overcloned example that may not be very good, compared to the original plant (and I'm gonna have to wait a few years to bloom it and find out). Like I said, I recognize that those chain stores introduce many, many people to the hobby, and you can occasionally find interesting things there. However now, ten years on, these mericlones are very cheap, but they are also being cloned by the thousands, and those plants may be developing pretty serious mutations. That, in my opinion, is reason enough to spring for the extra five or ten bucks for a plant that is a direct mericlone from the mother plant and was very likely produced as part of a much smaller clone batch. While most of the pot-plant phals and such may very well get trashed, some of those people that buy them may very well begin a lifelong hobby. My ultimate point here is that it is not at all necessary to be economically above average to buy from places other than garden centers and big box stores. Also, I think that one ultimately has a better experience, both customer service-wise and plant quality wise, when dealing with legitimate orchid vendors.

Again, let me say how important I think joining local orchid societies is in moving deeper into the hobby. Not only do you get to see the things people are growing around your area, but there are raffles, silent auctions, and you get real face time with people that deal with similar problems (water quality, temperature variations, weather, etc) to yours.

Also, you make friends who don't look at you as if you are entirely off your tree, when you start babbling about orchids.

-Cj

[goodgollymissmolly]

Shannan, most of what you say I certainly agree with. However, I see your daylily example differently than you do. Unlike Hosta collectors, daylily collectors stay away from tissue cultured plants because of the poor flower replications on the market. I could argue all day about why that is, but I'll skip that on an orchid forum.

What you did not say was that new daylily introductions sell for $100-300 US. I've paid $500 for tetraploid conversions of several daylily cultivars. While I realize that orchid species/hybrids can sell for $1000's or even tens of $1000's those are rare. $150 daylilies are the norm.

I think TC daylilies have really impacted the US market for older (3 years or more) daylily clones. That secondary market helped to support hybridizers in the past. Certainly TC (mericlone) orchids have both reduced prices and made orchids available to the masses. The replication question is less important because the orchids themselves vary widely in the wild. If the only orchid market was hybrids (as it is in daylilies) then the faithful reproduction would be more important to orchid people. Hostas are no different. TC Hostas dominate the market, individual clones vary so widely in different climates and cultures that minor TC differences are ignored.

Why would a very successful orchid/landscape person like Frank Smith jump into daylilies....because prices are astronomical that why. The major daylily hybridizers were/are family businesses and they do very well. Unfortunately the involvement of major enterprises like Krull-Smith will be a negative influence for the innovation in daylilies because his marketing power will kill off the innovators. But that barn door is open now and there's no going back.

It's true as you say that sometimes people start out with pot plants and become avid orchid hobbyists. It is also true that many folks never go any further. That's fine as long they don't jump my case because I spend a few bucks on my hobby.

BTW, I never said that people should not brag about their acquisitions on this or any forum. I simply said that I do not. That was to question why Jo Ann jumped me for using the word "snob" which I thought was used in a reasonable context, but no one ever jumped others for bragging about their acquisitions. Hell, I don't know. How are things in England? They pretty much stink in the US. A bunch of people who couldn't afford houses bought one and now they blame everyone but themselves. And we apparently have the three stooges running for president.

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

How are things in England? They pretty much stink in the US. A bunch of people who couldn't afford houses bought one and now they blame everyone but themselves. And we apparently have the three stooges running for president.

Oh well, why not? We already have Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton running the country...

Can't you just imagine Dick Cheyne saying "One of these days, Condi! ONE OF THESE DAYS! POW! RIGHT IN THE KISSER!"

Except he means with a shotgun.

Sorry, carry on with on-topic discussion.

-Cj

[shakkai]

I would really like to have this discussion! But I think that we've this thread and have wondered a bit too far off topic here. I'll create another thread in the Off Topic section where we can continue??

Cj - I agree about joining a local orchid society. Unfortunately, for me, I didn't really fit into my local society, so although I am still a member, I am not very active. I am in touch quite regularly with a local orchid nursery, and as for the social side of things - well, I get most of that right here on these forums!!

GoodGolly, I personally share your opinion about the people in it to make money through clever marketing. For me, I think the trouble with the use of the work 'snob' - applied to anything - is that it automatically sets up a division which doesn't exist in reality. If anyone has a collection of NOIDs from a local grocery store, they can get the same pleasure in growing them, tending to them, appreciating their blooms, as someone with rare and/or awarded clones of species. Its just a matter of personal taste more than anything - and that's the great thing about human beings!! We never all like the same things, we all live in different houses, drive different cars, wear different clothes, and have different priorities. Yet, young and old, experienced and amateur, species and hybrid, awarded clones and NOIDs, can all happily coexist here on this forum because no one (I hope) intentionally makes anyone feel like they inadequate.

Please see the new thread http://www.orchidboard.com/community...html#post91910 and hopefully we can continue the 'other part' of the conversation there. Trying to keep this thread directly related to orchids and their names!!

[goodgollymissmolly]

The current king and his shooter are way more dangerous than Ralph and Ed. They are more like the American version of Saddam and his publicity guy whatever his name was. The one who kept having news conferences saying the Iraq army was repelling the invaders.

But what the heck are we going to do? We have the old guy who wants a hundred year war, the black activist who associates with anti-American ministers, and poor Hill who seems the least dangerous of the group. If the pollsters gave a choice of "None of the Above" it would get 75% of the vote.

I guess Ralph Nader is a safe choice not to start a war or do anything else for that matter. Hell-in-a-handbasket comes to mind.

Is this off topic?

[shakkai]

In an attempt to get back on-topic... I just bought a Sophronitis purpurea at a recent show - so some nurseries have already made the name change, it seems.

Has anyone read the paper that give the new classification? What justification was used to lump these with Sophronitis? Just curious!