Native Orchids of North America

[kentaki]

Aside from Cyps, there really aren't many genera that nurseries handle. You will find a few here and there, and this is the most complete list that I am aware of:
Gardens at Post Hill

In addition to these, you may also want to check carnivorous plant nurseries because some of them do carry native orchids from time to time. But for some reason that I do not understand, American native orchids are extremely difficult to purchase.

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by kentaki

Aside from Cyps, there really aren't many genera that nurseries handle. You will find a few here and there, and this is the most complete list that I am aware of:
Gardens at Post Hill

In addition to these, you may also want to check carnivorous plant nurseries because some of them do carry native orchids from time to time. But for some reason that I do not understand, American native orchids are extremely difficult to purchase.

I may be incorrect in this, but I am under the impression that many of the natives are quite endangered and perhaps that is the reason for scarcity in nurseries, since original stock to breed from may be illegal to come by.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I may be incorrect in this, but I am under the impression that many of the natives are quite endangered and perhaps that is the reason for scarcity in nurseries, since original stock to breed from may be illegal to come by.

If I follow this logic, many tropical species are not or should not be in collection to begin with. Similarly, a known total of 2,683 plants have been reported for Cyp. kentuckiense from 57 sites in seven states from 1950 to 1989 (National Collection of Imperiled Plants - Plant Profiles). How do you explain ones available commercially? As long as given species are growing in private properties, I thought they could do whatever they want although there may be some stipulations. In addition, even some states occasionally sell plants collected from wild because of road construction, etc. Furthermore, plants growing in National Forests can be collected with a permit (depending on states, I assume), and I believe that seed collection is allowed as well.

As for the book mentioned, I have not really read. I was told that it was not that great, and AOS wasn't really happy with a review from a person they asked. They asked him to sweeten words, but basically the reviewer did not change much. The other book (Growing Hardy Orchids by John Tullock) is supposedly much better. Of course, everything, especially things you see on Internet, should be approached with a grain of salt.

[cabnc]

Tony sells orchids --

Plant Delights Website

located south of Raleigh, NC -- zone 7.

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by kentaki

If I follow this logic, many tropical species are not or should not be in collection to begin with. Similarly, a known total of 2,683 plants have been reported for Cyp. kentuckiense from 57 sites in seven states from 1950 to 1989 (National Collection of Imperiled Plants - Plant Profiles). How do you explain ones available commercially? As long as given species are growing in private properties, I thought they could do whatever they want although there may be some stipulations. In addition, even some states occasionally sell plants collected from wild because of road construction, etc. Furthermore, plants growing in National Forests can be collected with a permit (depending on states, I assume), and I believe that seed collection is allowed as well.

As I said above, I may be mistaken in that. It is my understanding that it is illegal to gather wild endangered species, just as it is illegal to shoot an endangered animal. I am sure there are probably exceptions to this, as to everything else.

I do know that there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As I said above, I may be mistaken in that. It is my understanding that it is illegal to gather wild endangered species, just as it is illegal to shoot an endangered animal. I am sure there are probably exceptions to this, as to everything else.

As I stated, it is not illegal in some circumstances, which I clearly stated with two examples. I am asking for facts here. So please give me specific examples as opposed to your "understanding."

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I do know that there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken.

Then, tell me about it. I am interested to know. I am not challenging you here, but I think if you know something, you should share instead of just spreading a mere speculation. After all, this is a forum section on "scientific matters."

I do not disagree with naoki, but I believe the main reason that these are not widely available is that there simply isn't enough demand to commercially produce them. Cyps are nice and beautiful, so many people are interested to buy them for a decent price. But who would pay the same amount money for Aplectrum hyemale, Goodyera pubescens, or even Platanthera ciliaris? And how many are willing to do that?

I also think American people prefer enjoying seeing these in nature as opposed to growing them. I do not think that is necessary a bad thing.

[Paschendale]

Well, for one example, in the matter of wetlands. Even on lands you own here, you can be heavily fined for draining or damaging them. As far as plant harvesting goes, admittedly my experience firsthand is solely in protected forests where there is signage posted that prevents wild harvesting under penalty of law. I have never inquired as to the availability of permits to gather. It is my feeling that, if a plant is rare and endangered anyway, it would be inconsiderate to gather it, since I may not be able to duplicate the natural environment it favors and so would essentially be killing it, which serves no purpose. That is why I am interested in finding places that can legally and sustainably provide cultivated plant materials.

As far as collecting wild specimens of plants that are in danger due to development or other threats, I have no particular problem with that. However that is still no guarantee that harvesting will be successful. An example of that is a particular plant I have read about in the southwest, I believe it was called a sand poppy. Anyway, there have been attempts to move these out of the way of development, but there was a 100% failure rate for this. Now, granted, those stats came to my attention several years ago and the conservationists that were working the problem may have come up with a solution.

I can identify with that problem to an extent when I recall my efforts at transplanting bracken fern. It took several attempts for me to successfully move one and enable it to survive. It was much more difficult than other ferns I have collected and demanded a much different technique, as the root structure was different from others.

The rather long-winded point I am attempting to make is that, even when you are technically able to move something, it is still not always advisable. Where a plant is endangered I would be hesitant to try unless I knew very well what I was doing where the plant's habits are concerned.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

Well, for one example, in the matter of wetlands. Even on lands you own here, you can be heavily fined for draining or damaging them.

That is not the same as collecting plants or seeds for propagation.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As far as plant harvesting goes, admittedly my experience firsthand is solely in protected forests where there is signage posted that prevents wild harvesting under penalty of law.

Again, this is moot. The question was whether endangered species can be *legally* collected under some circumstances. It was not about collecting from somewhere specifically "protected." Besides, as I mentioned previously, plant materials can be collected from National Forests with a permit. And you do not need a permit for seeds if I understand the regulation correctly.

This is from Daniel Boon National Forest (Forest Service)

The Daniel Boone National Forest provides an array of natural resources that may be gathered for personal use, but there are a few rules to remember. The gathering of most forest products from national forest land requires the issuance of a permit by the U.S. Forest Service. Without a permit, only certain products may be gathered for personal use. Any forest product collected in bulk or intended for commercial purposes will require a special-use permit.

No Permit Required
Fruits and nuts

Plant Collecting is such a popular activity that a permit system is required to protect some species from over-collection. A permit for plant collecting is valid for only one district of the Daniel Boone National Forest, depending on which area the collector chooses. Collectors are required to state which species they will gather. Each plant collecting permit costs $20, and the expiration date may vary by species and by district.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

It is my feeling that, if a plant is rare and endangered anyway, it would be inconsiderate to gather it, since I may not be able to duplicate the natural environment it favors and so would essentially be killing it, which serves no purpose. That is why I am interested in finding places that can legally and sustainably provide cultivated plant materials.

I am not a proponent of collecting plants, but seeds or other propagules must be harvested from original habitat in the first place for cultivation. In addition, you nonchalantly use the word "sustainably," but people do wildcraft endangered species sustainably (i.e., American ginseng--see the Daniel Boon National Forest site). Also, "rare" is a very subjective term.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As far as collecting wild specimens of plants that are in danger due to development or other threats, I have no particular problem with that.

I was not asking your feeling or whether you have a problem with collecting plants from wild due to development, etc. I asked you to provide facts that should support your claim that "there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken." In this case, harvesting endangered orchid species from private lands, but not about "draining or damaging them."

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I believe it was called a sand poppy. <snip> I can identify with that problem to an extent when I recall my efforts at transplanting bracken fern.

We are discussing orchids. You have a tendency to stray. BTW, I am not sure about the success rate, but I believe collected Cyp. reginae has been sold in the past by the State of Minnesota.

I do not necessarily agree or disagree with your philosophy regarding harvesting species from wild. All I am asking is to provide *facts* that support your assumption or "understanding."