Native Orchids of North America

[cabnc]

Tony sells orchids --

Plant Delights Website

located south of Raleigh, NC -- zone 7.

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by kentaki

If I follow this logic, many tropical species are not or should not be in collection to begin with. Similarly, a known total of 2,683 plants have been reported for Cyp. kentuckiense from 57 sites in seven states from 1950 to 1989 (National Collection of Imperiled Plants - Plant Profiles). How do you explain ones available commercially? As long as given species are growing in private properties, I thought they could do whatever they want although there may be some stipulations. In addition, even some states occasionally sell plants collected from wild because of road construction, etc. Furthermore, plants growing in National Forests can be collected with a permit (depending on states, I assume), and I believe that seed collection is allowed as well.

As I said above, I may be mistaken in that. It is my understanding that it is illegal to gather wild endangered species, just as it is illegal to shoot an endangered animal. I am sure there are probably exceptions to this, as to everything else.

I do know that there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken.

[naoki]

Sadly, endangered plants are not as protected as animals. My understanding is that you can do whatever with endangered plants on the private land (there may be difference among states).

Celebrating Wildflowers - Rare Plants - Laws and Regulations to Protect Endangered Plants

The reason why they are not commonly available is more to do with the difficulty of growing and propagating them.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As I said above, I may be mistaken in that. It is my understanding that it is illegal to gather wild endangered species, just as it is illegal to shoot an endangered animal. I am sure there are probably exceptions to this, as to everything else.

As I stated, it is not illegal in some circumstances, which I clearly stated with two examples. I am asking for facts here. So please give me specific examples as opposed to your "understanding."

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I do know that there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken.

Then, tell me about it. I am interested to know. I am not challenging you here, but I think if you know something, you should share instead of just spreading a mere speculation. After all, this is a forum section on "scientific matters."

I do not disagree with naoki, but I believe the main reason that these are not widely available is that there simply isn't enough demand to commercially produce them. Cyps are nice and beautiful, so many people are interested to buy them for a decent price. But who would pay the same amount money for Aplectrum hyemale, Goodyera pubescens, or even Platanthera ciliaris? And how many are willing to do that?

I also think American people prefer enjoying seeing these in nature as opposed to growing them. I do not think that is necessary a bad thing.

[Paschendale]

Well, for one example, in the matter of wetlands. Even on lands you own here, you can be heavily fined for draining or damaging them. As far as plant harvesting goes, admittedly my experience firsthand is solely in protected forests where there is signage posted that prevents wild harvesting under penalty of law. I have never inquired as to the availability of permits to gather. It is my feeling that, if a plant is rare and endangered anyway, it would be inconsiderate to gather it, since I may not be able to duplicate the natural environment it favors and so would essentially be killing it, which serves no purpose. That is why I am interested in finding places that can legally and sustainably provide cultivated plant materials.

As far as collecting wild specimens of plants that are in danger due to development or other threats, I have no particular problem with that. However that is still no guarantee that harvesting will be successful. An example of that is a particular plant I have read about in the southwest, I believe it was called a sand poppy. Anyway, there have been attempts to move these out of the way of development, but there was a 100% failure rate for this. Now, granted, those stats came to my attention several years ago and the conservationists that were working the problem may have come up with a solution.

I can identify with that problem to an extent when I recall my efforts at transplanting bracken fern. It took several attempts for me to successfully move one and enable it to survive. It was much more difficult than other ferns I have collected and demanded a much different technique, as the root structure was different from others.

The rather long-winded point I am attempting to make is that, even when you are technically able to move something, it is still not always advisable. Where a plant is endangered I would be hesitant to try unless I knew very well what I was doing where the plant's habits are concerned.

[kentaki]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

Well, for one example, in the matter of wetlands. Even on lands you own here, you can be heavily fined for draining or damaging them.

That is not the same as collecting plants or seeds for propagation.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As far as plant harvesting goes, admittedly my experience firsthand is solely in protected forests where there is signage posted that prevents wild harvesting under penalty of law.

Again, this is moot. The question was whether endangered species can be *legally* collected under some circumstances. It was not about collecting from somewhere specifically "protected." Besides, as I mentioned previously, plant materials can be collected from National Forests with a permit. And you do not need a permit for seeds if I understand the regulation correctly.

This is from Daniel Boon National Forest (Forest Service)

The Daniel Boone National Forest provides an array of natural resources that may be gathered for personal use, but there are a few rules to remember. The gathering of most forest products from national forest land requires the issuance of a permit by the U.S. Forest Service. Without a permit, only certain products may be gathered for personal use. Any forest product collected in bulk or intended for commercial purposes will require a special-use permit.

No Permit Required
Fruits and nuts

Plant Collecting is such a popular activity that a permit system is required to protect some species from over-collection. A permit for plant collecting is valid for only one district of the Daniel Boone National Forest, depending on which area the collector chooses. Collectors are required to state which species they will gather. Each plant collecting permit costs $20, and the expiration date may vary by species and by district.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

It is my feeling that, if a plant is rare and endangered anyway, it would be inconsiderate to gather it, since I may not be able to duplicate the natural environment it favors and so would essentially be killing it, which serves no purpose. That is why I am interested in finding places that can legally and sustainably provide cultivated plant materials.

I am not a proponent of collecting plants, but seeds or other propagules must be harvested from original habitat in the first place for cultivation. In addition, you nonchalantly use the word "sustainably," but people do wildcraft endangered species sustainably (i.e., American ginseng--see the Daniel Boon National Forest site). Also, "rare" is a very subjective term.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

As far as collecting wild specimens of plants that are in danger due to development or other threats, I have no particular problem with that.

I was not asking your feeling or whether you have a problem with collecting plants from wild due to development, etc. I asked you to provide facts that should support your claim that "there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken." In this case, harvesting endangered orchid species from private lands, but not about "draining or damaging them."

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I believe it was called a sand poppy. <snip> I can identify with that problem to an extent when I recall my efforts at transplanting bracken fern.

We are discussing orchids. You have a tendency to stray. BTW, I am not sure about the success rate, but I believe collected Cyp. reginae has been sold in the past by the State of Minnesota.

I do not necessarily agree or disagree with your philosophy regarding harvesting species from wild. All I am asking is to provide *facts* that support your assumption or "understanding."

[JungleMel]

It's harder to find them cultivated for sale than just to see them in the wild. So I'm not much help there.

However, for free online information about native orchids use the USDA's site, Advanced Search option. For example here's Epidendrum magnoliae, an epiphytic orchid native to the southernmost area of Mississippi (noticed where you lived)
Plants Profile for Epidendrum magnoliae var. magnoliae (green fly orchid)

Use the advanced search option to the left of the page to narrow down to the orchid family, and you can look up specifically what grows in your state and where. Along with all the other states of course.

We have a lot of Epidendrum magnoliae here in FL, easy to take a hike and see in the North through central FL. Maybe that's why they're not for sale around here. Andy's Orchids in CA used to sell them. Oddly enough no FL nurseries has any for sale. Then again, there are much more brightly colored Epidendrums from other countries that are for sale all over. It's a matter of what sells, and people tend to like the brightly colored orange, red, and pink Epidendrums and sell those easily. Not much of a market for little green Epi. magnoliae, and I think that applies to other species and genera or orchids as well. It was hard to track down a magnoliae when I decided to start a FL native orchids collection, but they pop up every so often.

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by JungleMel

It's harder to find them cultivated for sale than just to see them in the wild. So I'm not much help there.

However, for free online information about native orchids use the USDA's site, Advanced Search option. For example here's Epidendrum magnoliae, an epiphytic orchid native to the southernmost area of Mississippi (noticed where you lived)
Plants Profile for Epidendrum magnoliae var. magnoliae (green fly orchid)

Use the advanced search option to the left of the page to narrow down to the orchid family, and you can look up specifically what grows in your state and where. Along with all the other states of course.

We have a lot of Epidendrum magnoliae here in FL, easy to take a hike and see in the North through central FL. Maybe that's why they're not for sale around here. Andy's Orchids in CA used to sell them. Oddly enough no FL nurseries has any for sale. Then again, there are much more brightly colored Epidendrums from other countries that are for sale all over. It's a matter of what sells, and people tend to like the brightly colored orange, red, and pink Epidendrums and sell those easily. Not much of a market for little green Epi. magnoliae, and I think that applies to other species and genera or orchids as well. It was hard to track down a magnoliae when I decided to start a FL native orchids collection, but they pop up every so often.

Many thanks! I will check those listings. I can certainly understand that the more showy and colorful species would sell more and have more market appeal. Mainly I had wondered if I might have areas of the property that would approximate a natural environment for some of the native orchids and be able to reintroduce them here and there for my own enjoyment. Also, there are some of them that I have only ever seen pictures of and would love to see a genuine specimen. I keep meaning to make a trip to the arboretum south of my location, but I never have been able to go there, for one reason or another. I don't know if they have any orchid specimens or not, but it would be a nice chance to see some of them, if so.

I'd love to see some of the Florida areas and some of the wild plants in their own environment. I have always been envious of the variety of plants that can be grown there, in many cases set outside in the ground rather than in pots like we do here. It has been years since I've been to Florida and when I was last there, I was in the company of people who weren't as enthusiastic about roaming around in planty areas as I was, haha.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

Originally Posted by kentaki

That is not the same as collecting plants or seeds for propagation.



Again, this is moot. The question was whether endangered species can be *legally* collected under some circumstances. It was not about collecting from somewhere specifically "protected." Besides, as I mentioned previously, plant materials can be collected from National Forests with a permit. And you do not need a permit for seeds if I understand the regulation correctly.

This is from Daniel Boon National Forest (Forest Service)

The Daniel Boone National Forest provides an array of natural resources that may be gathered for personal use, but there are a few rules to remember. The gathering of most forest products from national forest land requires the issuance of a permit by the U.S. Forest Service. Without a permit, only certain products may be gathered for personal use. Any forest product collected in bulk or intended for commercial purposes will require a special-use permit.

No Permit Required
Fruits and nuts

Plant Collecting is such a popular activity that a permit system is required to protect some species from over-collection. A permit for plant collecting is valid for only one district of the Daniel Boone National Forest, depending on which area the collector chooses. Collectors are required to state which species they will gather. Each plant collecting permit costs $20, and the expiration date may vary by species and by district.




I am not a proponent of collecting plants, but seeds or other propagules must be harvested from original habitat in the first place for cultivation. In addition, you nonchalantly use the word "sustainably," but people do wildcraft endangered species sustainably (i.e., American ginseng--see the Daniel Boon National Forest site). Also, "rare" is a very subjective term.



I was not asking your feeling or whether you have a problem with collecting plants from wild due to development, etc. I asked you to provide facts that should support your claim that "there are cases where it does not matter if you are dealing with private lands or not, with regards to certain actions taken." In this case, harvesting endangered orchid species from private lands, but not about "draining or damaging them."



We are discussing orchids. You have a tendency to stray. BTW, I am not sure about the success rate, but I believe collected Cyp. reginae has been sold in the past by the State of Minnesota.

I do not necessarily agree or disagree with your philosophy regarding harvesting species from wild. All I am asking is to provide *facts* that support your assumption or "understanding."

Well, I'll tell you what, Kentaki. I'll be sure to keep my remarks strictly on topic and say as little as possible in the future, since it seems to trouble you so greatly.

You asked for examples and I gave you a couple that I could state certainly off the top of my head, either based on what I knew to be factual or based on my personal experience. You didn't specifically state it had to be about orchids. If I knew more than a few unconnected things about orchids, I probably would not have to resort to asking questions on the board.

I made my initial statement in the spirit of conversation as speculation why certain types of plants might not be easy to come by in the trade. I didn't expect to have my chops busted over it. I came here simply to learn a bit more about orchids and possibly to have a pleasant time while doing so, not to be grilled over my lack of knowledge.

Frankly I don't much appreciate being challenged when all I was doing was looking for information and trying to find a bit more about possible sources. I might not be the expert in orchids that you seem to be, but that doesn't make my presence here any less valid than yours. So you can spare me your sarcasm.

So don't worry about my inability to quote facts verbatim at you. I'll not put you to the effort of having to correct me for the quality or lack thereof in my posts in the future. I was not aware that every post here was subject to your approval as to topic-worthiness or that I was required to keep absolutely every word I type within such stringent guidelines.

My mistake.

[kentaki]

As for Epi. magnoliae, there was one nursery that kinda sold, but the name escaped me. It is very ironic that you can buy foreign species much easier than domestic ones.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

Well, I'll tell you what, Kentaki. I'll be sure to keep my remarks strictly on topic and say as little as possible in the future, since it seems to trouble you so greatly.

It does not trouble me. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

You asked for examples and I gave you a couple that I could state certainly off the top of my head, either based on what I knew to be factual or based on my personal experience.

Those are ok, but isn't this an orchid forum after all? If you have examples on orchids, that would have been much better and problems solved! Eureka! After all, this is a discussion board. Expressing one's opinion is surely encouraged, but it would have been much better, if it is supported by facts, not by just wishful thinking.

Originally Posted by Paschendale

I didn't expect to have my chops busted over it. I came here simply to learn a bit more about orchids and possibly to have a pleasant time while doing so, not to be grilled over my lack of knowledge.

Then, you didn't have to insist or continue making "assumption." You could simply say, "Well, I do not know." None is going to "grill" you for your lack of knowledge. I was asking for facts, not your speculation. As for other points you tried to make, I just restate what I have done already: "I was asking for facts, not your speculation."

I just do not understand why it is so hard not to admit that you did not know or were not able to provide facts. And without sarcasm, I am also going to pretend that I did not see little baby cries like "I might not be the expert in orchids that you seem to be," "So don't worry about my inability," "My mistake," and etc., but frankly, if you had so much energy to invest writing this, you could have simply looked up whether "endangered species can be *legally* collected under some circumstances." No? Then, "My mistakes."

I just smile and move on to other things...

[naoki]

Paschendale, does it has to be native to the US? If you are ok with any hardy terrestrial orchids, Bletilla is considered to be one of the easiest terrestrial. Even if some orchids may be growing in your area (e.g. Cyps), you do need to prepare the site to meet the specific requirement of the species. So if you want native orchids, you'll need to do quite a bit of learning. And stick around, there are lots of nice people around this forum, too.