Pollinia count

[Stray59]

I was just wondering - thinking about the haploid number in orchids - if you remove a pollinia and it has 4 sacs on a species that usually has the common 2 pollinia sacs, wouldn't that indicate that you have a 4N without having to go to the trouble and cost of counting chromosomes? Especially if 4 sacs is consistant in several blooms rather than just one bloom?
Just a question that I had floating around and wanted input on this -
Any takers?
Steve

[zxyqu]

I dont believe that is the case, but maybe. Some species and families have varying pollinia counts. I'm only knowledgeable for Phals, which always have 2 so far as I've seen, being 4n, 2n, or crapaploids. Interesting note though. I'll check again when Tying Shin Cupid blooms, which is a 4n plant.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Number of pollinia is an inherited characteristic, just like flower colour, form, and fragrance, and is independent of chromosome count. Unless everything I know is false, I believe there is no way in any form or fashion where doubling the chromosome count will double the pollina. When it comes to Phalaenopsis, Doritis pulcherrima (and its forms and very close relatives) is the only ones I'm aware that have four pollina. I highly doubt it would be possible to find four pollina in a species that is known to have two, unless you have a single floral mutation where two flowers fuse into one. However, the genetics still code for two pollina.

[Stray59]

As I asked the question, it's obvious I don't have the answer, but I thought that during the last discussion about haploids, it was mentioned that 4N would have 4 pollinia; when I went to crossing my 4N Sopronitis coccinea, each had 4 pollinia; this is what eventually turned into the question I had.
Hummmmmm - well I need to research a little more - and look at old posts also, to see if I read the post correctly.
Thanks,
Steve

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Nope, pollina numbers has nothing to do with chromosome count. I do know that within the Cattleya Alliance, some sections have two, some have four, and some have eight sets of pollina, and those are from naturally occuring, diploid species. Pollina number is just another physical characteristic, and I think it was one of the things considered way back then when they split the monofoliate Cattleya into Cattleya and Laelia. For further reassurance, I have a tetraploid Phalaenopsis hybrid, and without a doubt it has two pollina.

[Stray59]

Thanks for the info everyone - just a thought and now we all know; some of us knew already!
Thanks again,
Steve

[camille1585]

While I don't have a without a doubt yes or no answer, if you were to follow that logic, if a 4N has doubled pollinia, then why wouldn't everything else be doubled?? 2 colomns, 2 lips, 2 x petals... lol. Also by that logic, you could say that a triploid has 3 pollinia. Which I have never heard of.

But I'd say that ploidy is a characteristic of the chromosomes, and the effects of 4N simply enhance what is already there.