Crossing 4N Soph. coccinea

[Stray59]

Hey everyone -
I have been fortunate enough to recently purchase two 4N Sophronitis coccinea; now they both have multiple blooms about to open. I want to self the 4N and also cross them. They are from different stock as one came from the east coast and the other came from the west coast.
With both parents being 4N - what prediction for outcome would you venture to guess? Higher percentage of 4N I would think, but would they all be 4N?
Also if I breed a 4N Soph. with a regular Brassavola nodosa how much of the Brassavola will be suppressed?

Any info or opinions are appreciated -
Steve

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by Stray59

Hey everyone -
I have been fortunate enough to recently purchase two 4N Sophronitis coccinea; now they both have multiple blooms about to open. I want to self the 4N and also cross them. They are from different stock as one came from the east coast and the other came from the west coast.
With both parents being 4N - what prediction for outcome would you venture to guess? Higher percentage of 4N I would think, but would they all be 4N?
Also if I breed a 4N Soph. with a regular Brassavola nodosa how much of the Brassavola will be suppressed?

Any info or opinions are appreciated -
Steve

crossing a tetraploid with a tetraploid ( 4n x 4n) will result in all tetraploids.

if you cross a tetraploid with a diploid (4n x 2n), you create what is called a triploid (3n). 3n plants, lovingly referred to as crapploids, are for the most part a dead-end in breeding. in most cases they are not fertile and any crosses or selfings with/of them are not successful. some triploids also have problems such as reduced vigor and physical mutations. its best to stick with keeping the ploidy even on your crosses

[monocotman]

Hi,

I'm pretty sure that all the 4n coccineas that are currently available have come from the same breeding source in Japan.
They've just been distributed round the world to different orchid companies.
They converted the best clones to tetraploids and then line bred them over several generations for flowers and plant vigour. They are now are a pretty even population of excellent plants.
Regards,

David

[Stray59]

Thanks for the info -
I wondered about the 4N with 4N breeding. I was scared that they would be infertile. Good to hear that they should not be.
And as far as the breeding line goes - I know both of these lines originated in Japan, and I wondered about whether there was a intersect in their breeding.
Well, the 3N crapploids are good to know about. So should I look for a 4N Digbyana? This is a little setback in my breeding plans - but nothing huge. Just requires re-thinking some of the lines I was going to cross.
Thanks again
Steve

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by Stray59

Thanks for the info -
I wondered about the 4N with 4N breeding. I was scared that they would be infertile. Good to hear that they should not be.
And as far as the breeding line goes - I know both of these lines originated in Japan, and I wondered about whether there was a intersect in their breeding.
Well, the 3N crapploids are good to know about. So should I look for a 4N Digbyana? This is a little setback in my breeding plans - but nothing huge. Just requires re-thinking some of the lines I was going to cross.
Thanks again
Steve

yes i would definitely look for a 4n digbyana. or do a 2n coccinea x 2n digbyana and colchicine treat the protocorms

[monocotman]

It depends on whether you want to make further crosses with your coccinea x digbyana cross.
If not, triploids will be fine. There are several triploid crosses out there and they are good vigorous plants.

[orchidsarefun]

I have a bl Yellow Bird in bud.........but it could be a long time until it blooms - 4 weeks ? It was a Lowe's $2 rescue in late 2010 and its the first time it will ( hopefully ) bloom. Its tripled in size.
Yours was crossed with one of the parents of Yellow Bird - Richard Mueller back in 2003. Progeny was registered as Bc Star Fire - I can't find anything on Star Fire. One of the parents of RM is a really nice orange colour - very similar to coccinea. This could be an interesting cross. You may have to save pollen if mine doesn't provide in time.

[Stray59]

Thanks for the pollen offer - keep it handy. I may need it, but am not sure. I have two Bl. Yellow Bird and neither look like they are going to bloom anytime soon.
My coccinea each seedlings, perhaps coming from the same or similar line, but they are already showing differences in the plant growth and presentation of blooms, so I have some variance to play with.
My plan = the first blooms of each will be selfed. Then I am going to cross both, using each as the mother plant, so there goes blooms three and four.
I did want to use the best red with the roundest bloom to breed with digbyana and then into a SLC. hybrid; finding 4n's of what I want will be a very long road. But we all need a goal, huh?
Regardless, I will have seedlings of 4 n coccinea in a year or so, and that ain't all bad!
Will post pics when they bloom. Should be any day now.
Or at least I think -
Steve

[Stray59]

By the way Orchidsarefun:
I believe the parents of mine would be Soph. coccinea wouldn't it. These are supposed to be species coccinea so the parents should not be a hybrid, should it?
Confused,
Steve

[orchidsarefun]

yep, yours is a species. They are spectacular from photos.

interesting that you have 2 yellow bird, since that Lowe's purchase I have never seen them in a nursery ( in person )
I hope the darn thing blooms ! You seem to have a varied......and growing.....collection.

meant to add mine is on a cork mount and loves it. Most others seem to be potted up.