Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[TxRobNLa]

I think in terms of the should we create 4n species issue it is definitely going to be better to agree to disagree here.

Other than Rob's "blue" ( how many years on that ? ),

I have a lot converted tetraploids. It's actually faster for me to grow out a converted tetraploid seedling than it is for me to grow out a diploid from the same cross. The only reason I have years in all of this is I have a very extensive decades long breeding program that is planned out with multiple stages of goals I want to accomplish.

what other notable orchids do you think have been produced that makes you so keen to experiment ?

Most of your tetraploid Cymbidiums come from colchicine treatment. The more recent warm growing and smaller flowered Cymbidiums that are tetraploids also came from colchicine conversion. As far as I know all of the 4n Phrags were from colchicine treatment. Probably a good 50% or more of the tetraploid Cattleya's were also produced from colchicine treatment. Outside of orchids modern tetraploid daylilies are all produced from colchicine or orzyalin treatment.

What about the failures of colchicine ? What are those ? If its so great, why isn't there more literature on it ? What breeders are regularly using it ?

The failures resulted in the myth that colchicine treated orchids were poor growers. The bad failures resulted in dead plants in the lab.

You don't have a lot of breeders using it because most breeders either don't have their own lab or they are afraid of working with the chemical. The process is a bit of a pain in the lab, so there are not many labs that offer it as service. It's too hard to make money on doing the treatments. It's the end result that is of value, not the service of doing it. There are many individuals that actually use it all the time but they keep very quiet about it because they are creating their own stud plants to make a profit off of and it's easier to just not say anything and then later offer plants from the resulting crosses. Historically hybridizers have also been extremely guarded and kept a lot of information to themselves to protect their work.

I actually do not release my colchicine protocol to the general public because I personally won't teach people how to do the treatments unless they have a way to do chromosome counts. It's funny in the context of this larger discussion... Believe it or not I actually do have my own set of ethical guidelines that I follow when it comes to this topic. I've given serious thoughts to the ethics for a long time, I know where I personally stand and stick to that.

Best, Rob

[Jayfar]

A quick google for hexaploid orchid, brought up this:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/or...mprovement.pdf

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

A quick google for hexaploid orchid, brought up this:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/or...mprovement.pdf

the comment on the age of the 3Ns as being a factor is really interesting.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TxRobNLa

I think in terms of the should we create 4n species issue it is definitely going to be better to agree to disagree here.

I actually do not release my colchicine protocol to the general public because I personally won't teach people how to do the treatments unless they have a way to do chromosome counts. It's funny in the context of this larger discussion... Believe it or not I actually do have my own set of ethical guidelines that I follow when it comes to this topic. I've given serious thoughts to the ethics for a long time, I know where I personally stand and stick to that.

Best, Rob

I never doubted that for a minute !

[GirlGoneWild]

So, getting back to the technical aspects of breeding...

Could anyone shed some light on how the genes express themselves when you are making an initial cross vs. making a sib cross of the resulting hybrid?

For example, will a Phal Princess Kaiulani that has come about directly from the two parents be nicer than a Princess Kaiulani that has come about by crossing two parent Princess Kaiulani plants? Do genes start to get muddled up after a few sib crossings?

I'm just curious. I've been collecting species plants with the thought that it would be better to start with the 4n species plants and make all my hybrids directly from 4n sources.

Supposing orchidsarefun has a point (just to be clear, I'm not taking sides here...this is all hypothetical), what would be the ramifications of leaving the species plants as 2n and converting the resulting hybrids to 4n, then sib crossing those 4n hybrids to make more of the same hybrids instead of going back to the original species plants for each batch?

OH, and by "ramifications," I'm just referring to how it would affect the appearance and vitality of the resulting orchids. I'm assuming the vigor wouldn't be affected that much, but I imagine the appearance might begin to go a bit wonky after a few generations of sib crosses. Thoughts?

[TxRobNLa]

I ran across this history of Gublers article some time ago and it's a really good read where this topic is concerned:

History