Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[orchidsarefun]

Rob- I generally agree with you, but...then....on the other hand, do you not buy a lottery ticket because the odds are so stacked against you ? Personally I also prefer 4n plants, specifically because of the ploidy issues I have encountered with crosses, but you are reliant on vendors publishing that info, vendors already having used that breeding line and in a way you then become part of a "group-think" on what is the current trend. The fact that there is at least one exception on a 3N leads me to wonder why that happened ( eg was it an environmental factor ? ) and also that although it is a lightning-strike incident, gives a glimmer of hope that there may be a future for all the great aneuploids out there. As I have said before, a cheap chromosome counter at seedling stage would be invaluable. Hopefully somebody somewhere is looking at that. I also understand the argument against deliberately producing 3Ns - but 99.9% of the market doesn't care and certainly vendors that mass produce don't care either. To each his own, just consider the time and extreme patience required whichever route you go down. And also your goals - do you want to add to the base of existing knowledge or create something new/novel ...or maybe do both ?

[orchidsarefun]

as a personal example. I have an intergeneric cross currently with a pod that has made it past the 3 month stage and is healthy. So there is hope.
The interesting thing about this is that if the seed is viable and traits of the second parent are not evident in the offspring, it is probable that I have proved that this hybrid ( mother ) can be apomictic.
Of course this could have been done before, but I can find no evidence of this and it was an expert who told me about the possibility.
I just hope that the seeds are viable and the cross takes !

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by TxRobNLa

Every once in a while you end up with some special cases.

The vast majority of the time breeding with triploids and aneuploids just results in more and more breeding road blocks until the plants are mostly sterile.

Even today we have some amazing reds that unfortunately are triploids and there is no way to further advance those lines of breeding.

So you have to think long and hard if your willing to take that risk or just spend some upfront time investing in plants with even ploidy. It usually pays off in the long run.

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Rob- I generally agree with you, but...then....on the other hand, do you not buy a lottery ticket because the odds are so stacked against you ?

To each his own, just consider the time and extreme patience required whichever route you go down. And also your goals - do you want to add to the base of existing knowledge or create something new/novel ...or maybe do both ?

Most breeders do not have the time and money to play the lottery with their hybrids and hope for a 3n that will work. I think you can say the same for most hobbyist who also breed. Making crosses can be very space consuming, in addition to time and money, all of which are often at a premium.

Why would you want to hope that you get a one in a ten million plant when you can use line bred 2n or 4n parents and get an amazing sib cross with potentially dozens of award winning progeny? At any given time, I guarantee that you that new/novel crosses are dominated by even ploidy plants over odd ploidy plants.

Then lets look at the long term effects to the hobby of using plants with odd numbered ploidy. It makes breeding for future hobbyists and breeders infinitely more difficult. It seems selfish for current breeders to create something new in a dead end line. Getting the glory now while sacrificing new lines later on.

[orchidsarefun]

Steve - with mericloning, mass-producers don't care about ploidy so the majority of orchids available will be and are aneuploid.

I prefer to come to a natural solution - its my time, money, space and commitment and although it may be a dead-end ultimately, its hard for me to imagine that there can't be one. Especially when there is at least one example of an exception to the rule. There are so many 3N hybrids out there that are "special" and its a waste to give up on them.

I don't believe in GM of species - just research the devastating effects of this on corn species, where they originate. I am sure that at the outset everyone had the best of intentions.

What I am trying to do is not mad-scientist to unwittingly destroy any gene pool. On the contrary I want to try and unlock a gene pool that is currently a dead-end. I go into this knowing its 99.9999% impossible and who knows maybe I give up after another 2 years. There is no harm in trying.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

There is no harm in trying.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I don't believe in GM of species - just research the devastating effects of this on corn species, where they originate. I am sure that at the outset everyone had the best of intentions.

I'm not going to get into the agricultural aspect of this, but the greatest glory of what we are doing is that treating the species we have in cultivation will have no effect on wild species whatsoever. First off, I highly doubt that tetraploid species would be willingly introduced into the unknowing, general hobbyist market. So, that would leave only those who have a good knowledge of ploidy to have the tetraploid species, mostly to breed with. The only way I could ever see the creation of tetraploid species in hobbyist cultivation ever causing a problem to natural species would be if someone were to naturalize tetraploids into areas that the same species grows wild. Actually, know that I think of it, I highly doubt this would be an issue. Even if a 4n got out there and was pollinated with a 2n, you would get a pod of seedlings that wouldn't reproduce further anyways.

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Steve - with mericloning, mass-producers don't care about ploidy so the majority of orchids available will be and are aneuploid.

Wait, you say the majority of orchids available are aneuploid? I find this rather disturbing. Can anyone speak to this point a bit more?

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I prefer to come to a natural solution - its my time, money, space and commitment and although it may be a dead-end ultimately, its hard for me to imagine that there can't be one. Especially when there is at least one example of an exception to the rule. There are so many 3N hybrids out there that are "special" and its a waste to give up on them.

I don't have a fundamental issue with what you're doing. I think we all have something to contribute to the world of orchids, and if we all had the same inspirations, then nothing new would ever get done. There has to be someone doing groundbreaking stuff somewhere, or all we'll ever have is the same old, same old (not that there isn't a LOT great about same-old, same-old...I LOVE my species plant collection!!)

But this is how innovation comes about; someone gets inspired to do something, even in the face of a bunch of other people who say it's ridiculous.

I do hope you end up with some amazing plants as a result of your efforts. Please let us know how everything goes!

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I don't believe in GM of species - just research the devastating effects of this on corn species, where they originate. I am sure that at the outset everyone had the best of intentions.

Actually, the genetic manipulation of corn was all about money. The corn companies didn't want farmers being able to grow their own corn year after year from the seed of last year's crops, because then the big companies wouldn't make any money, since technically they'd only need to sell corn seed to each farmer once. Then the farmers would be independent.

So they deliberately made corn sterile so farmers would need to buy their seed every year from the distributors. Also, anyone trying to grow regular corn these days just can't get the production up to a level where they can compete with the genetically modified corn, which is bred to live in close quarters and be extremely confined, which regular corn won't tolerate.

A great book to read is "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan, if you want to know more about how corn got the way it is. I know it's a bit off topic, but it's a great book![/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

What I am trying to do is not mad-scientist to unwittingly destroy any gene pool. On the contrary I want to try and unlock a gene pool that is currently a dead-end. I go into this knowing its 99.9999% impossible and who knows maybe I give up after another 2 years. There is no harm in trying.

I agree that if this is how you choose to use your time and resources, that's up to you. You need to do what you feel passionate about. We all do. I think others are making the point that it's not practical for MOST people, and hence that's why people aren't pursuing 3N plants.

I would just place a caveat on whatever you come up with to say that if you create an outstanding 3N plant, just make sure you let people know that's what it is. The average person probably won't care and will buy it anyway, because they don't know what 3N means. But if a breeder happens upon your website/store/greenhouse, it would let the person know that the plant is a potential dead-end for breeding. This way you've covered your bases and everyone can be informed about what they are buying.

I wish the ploidy was listed for every plant I've ever bought, but hardly anyone is doing this. I'm hoping that as time goes by, more sellers will realize the importance of listing the ploidy of their plants for the good of orchid breeders everywhere. Of course, this also assumes everyone will be counting chromosomes.

Where's that cheap chromosome counter again? Hehee!! I want one!

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by GirlGoneWild

Wait, you say the majority of orchids available are aneuploid? I find this rather disturbing. Can anyone speak to this point a bit more?

I think he was implying that most (actually only a small amount) of hybrids that are mericloned are 3n. A lot of the dinner plate whites, pinks, purples, and yellows are 4n, as well as the larger harlequins. The only common 3n that is mass produces is something like Sogo Gotris, small miniatures, which are a cross between either equestris or something similar to a large 4n. If you can actually get an ID, there is a really high chance that one of the mass-produced plants are 4n. I've heard plenty of times that some peoples grocery stores or hardware stores carry Phals with ID's, so it is possible to find plenty of 4n's out there. There are also a lot of vendors (such as Norman's) that carry plenty of 4n. If you ever are wondering about the ploidity of something, just ask me and I can do a quick parentage check to see the likely hood of what it is.

[orchidsarefun]

you forget about the following
- the destruction of species habitat
- the prevalence of mericloning
- the natural life-cycle
- examples of what has happened with other species.

I repeat - there is less harm in what I am trying to do, compared to species modification. To me the end doesn't justify the means. There is a BIG difference to unlocking a gene pool of 3Ns, to creating a GM gene pool of species.

I am not saying however that artificial manipulation of hybrids is necessarily a bad thing. It would be interesting if someone actually knew the names of a couple...

GirlGoneWild - see this current article. There are many more, but you get the gist. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Two Mexican states ban GM corn | Health Impact News

[isurus79]

I think we're getting off topic here.