Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by TxRobNLa

Unfortunately this is not true, especially in colchicine treated populations. Some of the 4ns will visually look like 2ns. We've verified this many times with counts now. There will also be enough variety in the remaining 2ns to the degree that some of the 2ns look 4n when compared to each other. Its a really messy situation unfortunately. Like so many other things in nature, things are often not black and white.

I'll try to write more tonight about why this happens.

Ugh, this really sucks. I wish there was an easier way to verify 4n's without doing chromosome counts, although the guard cell method seems slightly more dependable. . . I hope.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TxRobNLa

Unfortunately this is not true, especially in colchicine treated populations. Some of the 4ns will visually look like 2ns. We've verified this many times with counts now. There will also be enough variety in the remaining 2ns to the degree that some of the 2ns look 4n when compared to each other. Its a really messy situation unfortunately. Like so many other things in nature, things are often not black and white.

I'll try to write more tonight about why this happens.

that's interesting because all of the articles I have read have said that increasing ploidy always results in a visibly better looking plant.
Things are not often black and white in nature is so true and that's why I will continue trying with my 3Ns
In 20yrs time I am sure breeders will be saying WTF were those people back then thinking.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

that's why I will continue trying with my 3Ns

I thought you always wanted to trash 3Ns because they are infertile and/or produce odd numbered ploidy offspring which tend to be hard to breed for future generation and/or infertile?

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by isurus79

I thought you always wanted to trash 3Ns because they are infertile and/or produce odd numbered ploidy offspring which tend to be hard to breed for future generation and/or infertile?

not me. I have tried a number of crosses with 3Ns that I have thought interesting. I want to be able to have the option to trash seedlings of my own 3N crosses if they are crapaploid - for that a cheap test is vital. I could always sell them as NoIds anyway; most people don't care as they won't be breeding.

[zxyqu]

You dont trash 3n or polyploid plants that aren't even, as they can be used as a pos parent with success. Now this creates other issues with the seedling population, but it will work. Just the seedlings will now be pollen infertile.

Now as to guard cell measurement. Rob is spot on about when this works. You need multiple seedlings from the same batch of crosses. It can't be a remake of a cross, or a sib cross comparison. For example only the plants from the original Joy Spring Canary cross could be compared, so you can use any of the remakes to compare to. And, you need to take several 'tapes' to measure several guard cells to get a good average of a plant. Taking them at the same time from each plant also helps.
I hope that made sense.
As to using other characteristics, be warned this just isn't the case. Different conditions equals different roots/leaves/flowers.
Cody if you want to sent me some tape samples, I'll measure them for you.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by zxyqu

Cody if you want to sent me some tape samples, I'll measure them for you.

I'm really happy that you are willing to do this!!! What I would do is follow my previously said plans, and have flasks of treated and untreated seedlings. Then, I'll send you several tapes of the untreated seedlings, and then tapes from the treated batches that I think may be tetraploid. Since the seedlings will all be growing under the same conditions, I think we could knock out environmental differences from the variables. If I or the guy who is doing flasking for me had some colchicine handy, I think I would do this with the one pod that is a week or so from splitting. It can't wait though, as he sows the seeds before the pod has a chance to split.

[zxyqu]

Didn't you say you h e some colchicine treated plants in flask already

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by zxyqu

Didn't you say you h e some colchicine treated plants in flask already

Patrick has the colchicine treated flasks. I was emailing Patrick and he said that Robert, the member of my OS who is flasking for me, should be able to get colchicine from the source that he gets his flasks from. Lol, I think I want some colchicine for Christmas!!!!

[zxyqu]

Just remember to be careful with this stuff. It is nasty, and a potent carcinogen which should be obvious given what it does to orchid chromosomes.

[zxyqu]

Just remember to be careful with this stuff. It is nasty, and a potent carcinogen which should be obvious given what it does to orchid chromosomes. If you don't know what you're doing, hold off on it.