Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TxRobNLa

I think in terms of the should we create 4n species issue it is definitely going to be better to agree to disagree here.

I actually do not release my colchicine protocol to the general public because I personally won't teach people how to do the treatments unless they have a way to do chromosome counts. It's funny in the context of this larger discussion... Believe it or not I actually do have my own set of ethical guidelines that I follow when it comes to this topic. I've given serious thoughts to the ethics for a long time, I know where I personally stand and stick to that.

Best, Rob

I never doubted that for a minute !

[GirlGoneWild]

So, getting back to the technical aspects of breeding...

Could anyone shed some light on how the genes express themselves when you are making an initial cross vs. making a sib cross of the resulting hybrid?

For example, will a Phal Princess Kaiulani that has come about directly from the two parents be nicer than a Princess Kaiulani that has come about by crossing two parent Princess Kaiulani plants? Do genes start to get muddled up after a few sib crossings?

I'm just curious. I've been collecting species plants with the thought that it would be better to start with the 4n species plants and make all my hybrids directly from 4n sources.

Supposing orchidsarefun has a point (just to be clear, I'm not taking sides here...this is all hypothetical), what would be the ramifications of leaving the species plants as 2n and converting the resulting hybrids to 4n, then sib crossing those 4n hybrids to make more of the same hybrids instead of going back to the original species plants for each batch?

OH, and by "ramifications," I'm just referring to how it would affect the appearance and vitality of the resulting orchids. I'm assuming the vigor wouldn't be affected that much, but I imagine the appearance might begin to go a bit wonky after a few generations of sib crosses. Thoughts?

[zxyqu]

Nope, things won't get wonky after a few generations. There are pros and cons to starting with a PK and sobbing versus remaking it through original species. If you want to make better resulting progeny, the key is to use the BEST parents available. But best is relative. Maybe you want the best grower with an ok flower, or the most fragrant and best bloom but slower grower. Either way you will want to bloom out a bunch to find the best from a cross, then maybe you sib it again and start line breeding. Think about how nature was doing it for a few centuries.
As to which way, 2n or 4n, will result in the best progeny, I think robs example indicates it probably doesn't matter. So I'd do what is easiest.

[Call_Me_Bob]

something to think , if theres a hybrid a few generations removed from species, it would save alot of time to use that hybrid for breeding instead of re-creating it from species level. even selfing it and colchicine treating the protocorms would be quicker than remaking it from species level (assuming its not a primary)



a random wondering of mine- what happens when you colchicine treat a cross that would otherwise result in a 3n? what happens when you colchicine treat a 4nx4n cross?

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by zxyqu

Nope, things won't get wonky after a few generations. There are pros and cons to starting with a PK and sobbing versus remaking it through original species. If you want to make better resulting progeny, the key is to use the BEST parents available. But best is relative. Maybe you want the best grower with an ok flower, or the most fragrant and best bloom but slower grower. Either way you will want to bloom out a bunch to find the best from a cross, then maybe you sib it again and start line breeding. Think about how nature was doing it for a few centuries.
As to which way, 2n or 4n, will result in the best progeny, I think robs example indicates it probably doesn't matter. So I'd do what is easiest.

Ahhhh, thanks!! That's just about the most succinct, clear answer I could have hoped for. Awesome!

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by Call_Me_Bob

a random wondering of mine- what happens when you colchicine treat a cross that would otherwise result in a 3n? what happens when you colchicine treat a 4nx4n cross?

I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics of it, but anything above 4n seems to be pretty unstable. With that many chromosomes attempting to pair up, a lot can go wrong. I think Rob addressed the hexaploid breeding question earlier a few comments up in the thread. I suppose it's technically possible to make a hexaploid or octoploid plant, but from what I understand they're not really good for much and aren't particularly strong growers.

As always, someone tell me if I'm wrong...hehee!

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by GirlGoneWild

I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics of it, but anything above 4n seems to be pretty unstable. With that many chromosomes attempting to pair up, a lot can go wrong. I think Rob addressed the hexaploid breeding question earlier a few comments up in the thread. I suppose it's technically possible to make a hexaploid or octoploid plant, but from what I understand they're not really good for much and aren't particularly strong growers.

As always, someone tell me if I'm wrong...hehee!

they certainly arent stable, i just wasnt sure what would happen...its the 17 year old boy coming out in me..

[orchidsarefun]

one study

Strong inbreeding depression and local outbreeding depression in the rewarding orchid Gymnadenia conopsea - Springer

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by Call_Me_Bob

something to think , if theres a hybrid a few generations removed from species, it would save alot of time to use that hybrid for breeding instead of re-creating it from species level. even selfing it and colchicine treating the protocorms would be quicker than remaking it from species level (assuming its not a primary)

True, but as you know, there are plenty of classic novelty hybrids that aren't really those hybrids by today's standards. An example would be George Vasquez, which is registered as (Luedde-violacea x violacea). However, it is now highly suspected that the "lueddemanniana" in Luedde-violacea was really a pulchra. This easily happened because long ago when this hybrid was made, pulchra was considered a variety of lueddemanniana. Probably the more common instance of this would be the violacea/bellina issue. They were both once considered the same species, so even though a lot of hybrids were registered with violacea listed as the parent, violacea var. Borneo a.k.a. bellina, was usually preferred and used.
Since many of these issues run faaaaaaar back in time, its impossible in some cases to tell which species was really used in a more complex hybrid. This is the main reason I would like to remake some classical hybrids from the ground up. It would give me the chance to not only use parents with much better quality, but also let me make it with the species it was registered with. George Vasquez is one of the few classics I would like to make, as well as Yungho Gelb Canary.

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

True, but as you know, there are plenty of classic novelty hybrids that aren't really those hybrids by today's standards. An example would be George Vasquez, which is registered as (Luedde-violacea x violacea). However, it is now highly suspected that the "lueddemanniana" in Luedde-violacea was really a pulchra. This easily happened because long ago when this hybrid was made, pulchra was considered a variety of lueddemanniana. Probably the more common instance of this would be the violacea/bellina issue. They were both once considered the same species, so even though a lot of hybrids were registered with violacea listed as the parent, violacea var. Borneo a.k.a. bellina, was usually preferred and used.
Since many of these issues run faaaaaaar back in time, its impossible in some cases to tell which species was really used in a more complex hybrid. This is the main reason I would like to remake some classical hybrids from the ground up. It would give me the chance to not only use parents with much better quality, but also let me make it with the species it was registered with. George Vasquez is one of the few classics I would like to make, as well as Yungho Gelb Canary.

jsut something to note on that, for hybrids that have questionable parentage, such as George Vasquez or the violacea/bellina things, if you remake them with clean parents. that will be great and we will know exactly what they are made of. however, we also may not have the same hybrid, if indeed the parentage is fuzzy, then using the supposed parents to re-create it wont actually get you the same thing