Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

to be serious, even a reputable orchid nursery like Hausermann's now stock NoIDs. I was there a few weeks ago and they had cyms and milts that were NoID. I wonder how quickly the switch to some NoID phals will happen since it is so prevalent everywhere else. The shift may also be because of potential patent fees being incurred, but I don't know for sure.

I think its just a matter of margins. I'm assuming the breeder is getting paid in peanuts, so why waste money on a plastic tag and why waste time on printing them for a consumer that doesn't care?

[orchidsarefun]

I think on species purity we will agree to disagree. Nuff said.

[zxyqu]

Uh, HD in Atlanta sells named Phal clones. Some are 4n, some 2n, and some crapaploids. Also, trader joes and whole foods have similar selections.
I'm still unclear how developing line bred species, either 4n or 2n is an issue at all. In fact mother nature has apparently created these polyploid accidents already. Which shouldn't surprise anyone as even humans display cases of polyploidy. It's unlikely these plants would be reintroduced to the wild, given that's it's unlikely it's wild might not exist anymore.
I'll end with this though. If you want to do a cross, just do it. There are risks for sure, and you may not get good seed the first go round or three (whoops...), but make a cross that makes you happy. Most of us arent doing it for others anyway.

[orchidsarefun]

It's unlikely these plants would be reintroduced to the wild, given that's it's unlikely it's wild might not exist anymore.

A simple google search shows that orchids ARE disappearing. I have read that a phal bellina var is almost extinct, but can't find that article:

Celebrating Singapore's BioDiversity!: Saving Singapore's wild orchids

The Need for Conservation

Mexico is home to over 1,200 different species of orchids, making it one of the world’s greatest hotspots for these amazing plants.

But sadly, Mexico is ranked high in another category as well – it is 4th in the world for forest loss. Each year, Mexico cuts down approximately 4% of all its remaining woodlands, about 1,000,000 hectacres a year!

Since 60% of Mexico’s orchid species make their homes in cloud forests, it is no surprise that at least 22 species of orchids have disappeared from the wild since 1998.

There is another big problem as well – plant poaching, or the harvesting of orchids from the wild. In 2001, Mexico passed a national law, NOM-059-ECOL-2001, that makes it illegal for anyone to remove many orchid species, or even their flowers, from the wild.

and another one
Traveling in Your Naked Dreams...: That Orchids Already Gone...

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Ok, so I don't see why converting quality, line-bred species to tetraploids has anything to do with that. . .

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

Ok, so I don't see why converting quality, line-bred species to tetraploids has anything to do with that. . .

well you, GirlGoneWild and Jarad have said that its unlikely that your projects will impact on wild species. You said that you would preserve your 2Ns as original stock...
I pointed out that because of a natural life-cycle, meri-cloning, habitat destruction etc that it is highly unlikely that your gm offspring will not someday ( maybe a long time ) contaminate the original gene-pool, whether through the above factors or back-crossing. If you are successful in developing a GM species and it has attractive qualities to enough people, do you really believe that this will be ignored by other breeders ? For those people who are re-introducing species to a habitat where it is currently extinct ( like the guy in Singapore ), maybe those qualities - like a bigger flower for eg - may be the precise reason why the gm species doesn't adapt to life in the wild. There are bigger issues than just a desire for a bigger, better flower or something in your view is desirable. There is an ethical viewpoint too as a counterbalance. I just don't agree with GM of species. I seem to have the minority viewpoint on this, and I did say nuff said !!!

[zxyqu]

I see what you are saying, but my point was based around the fact that I hope the conservationist choosing to reintroduce a species would be smart enough to NOT use a 4n species, or a highly line bred one. I would be disappointed in anyone trying to reintroduce a species that didn't know it's exact genetic makeup.
Anyway, I actually like my diploid species for now.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

You have some reasonable thinking, orchidsarefun, and I'm glad you aren't pursuing your reason blindly. As Jarad said, anyone who is researching reintroducing species to the wild should be knowledgeable enough to never choose line-bred species. And yeah, I would probably keep my 2n species for the purpose of breeding with other 2n's I might aquire in order to convert them in flask. And as for the 4n species, I would probably never release them, and if I were to, I would make sure to have them clearly labelled as 4n. I can see how many years down the line the 4n indication may be lost, which is why I would most likely only sell hybrids.

[orchidsarefun]

the phal ploidy issue drives me crazy. The puzzle for me is to figure out a rational reason, or 2, why some pods don't develop at all ( maybe easy to explain, the ploidy issue ), why some abort at the 3 month stage and then why some dehisce and contain infertile or no seed.
Something is going wrong with the natural order of things and I don't know if its only genetic. I think things may become clearer the next go-round attempt.
I have read that zygos have similar ploidy problems, maybe I have been lucky to have seedlings already that have been replated, but its a recurring issue anyway.

[zxyqu]

There is more to getting seed than just ploidy. Phals especially need an good bit of light to get seeds in the pod, otherwise, they'll just swell up and/or remain empty. Also just getting a pod to start on Phals sometimes is tricky, especially for the smaller species (lowii, braceana, etc). Sometimes it's got to be the right time, right flower age, right pollen age, etc. There are some ridiculous variables apparently.