Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by isurus79

I think we're getting off topic here.

Well, GirlGoneWild doesn't seem to mind, so as long as she isn't annoyed with the direction of the thread, I don't see an issue.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

I think he was implying that most (actually only a small amount) of hybrids that are mericloned are 3n. A lot of the dinner plate whites, pinks, purples, and yellows are 4n, as well as the larger harlequins. The only common 3n that is mass produces is something like Sogo Gotris, small miniatures, which are a cross between either equestris or something similar to a large 4n. If you can actually get an ID, there is a really high chance that one of the mass-produced plants are 4n. I've heard plenty of times that some peoples grocery stores or hardware stores carry Phals with ID's, so it is possible to find plenty of 4n's out there. There are also a lot of vendors (such as Norman's) that carry plenty of 4n. If you ever are wondering about the ploidity of something, just ask me and I can do a quick parentage check to see the likely hood of what it is.

actually in the last year I have never seen a named variety in any retail/big box store. GL to finding one in the USA - please let me know if you do find one . ( I have looked in 5 states ) I phoned a vendor ( 10,000 blooming orchids imported every 2 months ) and they gave the lame ( but true ) excuse that it would take too long to label and not worth it as most people except hobbyists don't care. In addition to this, I have tried at least 20 crosses to different ones and all have failed. The one mother plant I used did have viable seed from my own stock, which is about to be replated, so ithe problem is not from my parent.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

actually in the last year I have never seen a named variety in any retail/big box store. GL to finding one in the USA - please let me know if you do find one . ( I have looked in 5 states ) I phoned a vendor ( 10,000 blooming orchids imported every 2 months ) and they gave the lame ( but true ) excuse that it would take too long to label and not worth it as most people except hobbyists don't care. In addition to this, I have tried at least 20 crosses to different ones and all have failed. The one mother plant I used did have viable seed from my own stock, which is about to be replated, so ithe problem is not from my parent.

I don't have the time to link to such threads, but I've heard countless stories from several forums of people picking up legitly named Phals, Onc, Dends, and Catts from places like Trader Joes and Home Depot. I do know that it really depends on the location, as it may be only a few specific locations that import from people that keep the tages in, but they are still out there. It may be that you did get some 3n, and I won't pretend that they aren't out there, but I know for a fact that there are still plenty of mass-produced 4n.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

I don't have the time to link to such threads, but I've heard countless stories from several forums of people picking up legitly named Phals, Onc, Dends, and Catts from places like Trader Joes and Home Depot. I do know that it really depends on the location, as it may be only a few specific locations that import from people that keep the tages in, but they are still out there. It may be that you did get some 3n, and I won't pretend that they aren't out there, but I know for a fact that there are still plenty of mass-produced 4n.

well I challenge anyone to let me know where they have found a named PHAL and in what state ! As there are horrendous stats on misnamed phals anyway, I would advise anyone serious in this topic to buy from a recognised vendor, selling a named 4N.


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Pests Adapt to GMOs Requiring More Pesticides for GM Crops | Health Impact News

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

well I challenge anyone to let me know where they have found a named PHAL and in what state ! As there are horrendous stats on misnamed phals anyway, I would advise anyone serious in this topic to buy from a recognised vendor, selling a named 4N.

Challenge accepted!!!

This isn't a Phal, but I do know H&R Nurseries sells plants to Walgreens in Hawaii. What do I win??? lol

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Challenge accepted!!!

This isn't a Phal, but I do know H&R Nurseries sells plants to Walgreens in Hawaii. What do I win??? lol

You hit a home run..........oops, no the rules specify a phal.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

You hit a home run..........oops, no the rules specify a phal.

Yaaaaaay!

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Challenge accepted!!!

This isn't a Phal, but I do know H&R Nurseries sells plants to Walgreens in Hawaii. What do I win??? lol

This is usually the reason why some stores (usually the more southern ones) tend to have ID'd plants - there is a local, semi-commercial vendor who sells mass produced plants as an extra profit.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Yaaaaaay!

to be serious, even a reputable orchid nursery like Hausermann's now stock NoIDs. I was there a few weeks ago and they had cyms and milts that were NoID. I wonder how quickly the switch to some NoID phals will happen since it is so prevalent everywhere else. The shift may also be because of potential patent fees being incurred, but I don't know for sure.

[GirlGoneWild]

My personal experience with box stores is that it's a crapshoot. In my area, Home Depot does not label but Lowe's does. No clue why.

I think it was the "most plants out there are aneuploid" statement that confused me. It would seem rather odd that aneuploid plants with little reproductive potential would dominate the market. But I suppose with cloning being the preferred method of reproduction for mass marketers, anything is possible.

But orchids from box stores aren't our main focus here, because this is mainly a discussion about breeding and how 2N and 4N affects vigor in resulting plants. My goal isn't to try and find NOID hybrids to breed for the sake of making more NOID hybrids, so I don't really need to worry about the ploidity of a NOID hybrid I bought for $6 at a discount shop.

If you're looking to go the commercial, mass-market route, I agree that ploidity may not matter at all, especially if you will be cloning your plants. But if you are catering to the hobbyists and serious breeders, offering plants with known ploidity can offer a tremendous value.

My goal is to help make improved species plants available for breeding, so that people who are interested in making primary crosses aren't limited to 2N plants.

I don't think there's much concern with threatening a species by doing this, because it's not like we're going to be taking our prized 4N plants and reintroducing them into the wild.