Selfings of awarded cultivars?

[catherinecarney]

Hi all--

As a breeder of Shetland sheep (which came into this country in the 80's and descends from an import of less than 30 animals) I thought I'd wade in here.

Inbreeding per se isn't a bad thing--it tends to bring out recessive traits by creating homozygous organisms. In theory, you then are able to cull the organisms carrying undesirable traits out of your breeding program more quickly as you can figure out which ones are carrying the genes you want or don't want. However, too many people keep breeders in their programs that they KNOW carry undesirable traits because they're "cute" or "pretty." I have a few animals in my flock in that situation BUT they will not be used as breeding stock, EVER.

So, I know it's tough, but when planning breeding programs for any organism, you MUST be prepared to cull.

Catherine

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by catherinecarney

Hi all--


So, I know it's tough, but when planning breeding programs for any organism, you MUST be prepared to cull.

Catherine

yep, but with orchids its a much longer process from seed to flowering plant ( and a larger population of plants ), and then some - to get to F2, depending on your dedication. I know someone who has been breeding catts for 30 years to get that perfect specimen......well at least to his standards anyway.

[catherinecarney]

It takes time and dedication to do any breeding program well. I've been working with my chosen Shetland bloodlines for over a decade and am probably at least still a decade away (between 5 and 8 generations, depending on how early I breed my young stock) from getting anywhere near my vision of the "perfect" Shetland.

There are always setbacks, whether it be weather, or losses, or finding out that your foundation stock doesn't have have the genetics you want and needing to find a compatible outcross. I have had to cull one ram line out of my program not because of physical characteristics but because of temperament--pity, because physically they were what I wanted and meshed well with my ewe bloodlines, but they were aggressive as all get out and going after not just the other sheep but people as well--and it's taken me five years to find another ram line that meshes with the existing genetics the same way.

Genetics, be it plant or animal, can be some of the most frustrating and rewarding things to try to learn, and applying that knowledge to a breeding program is doubly so. But isn't that sort of challenge one of the reasons we do this?

[Stray59]

I love how these threads get into such deep discussions.
An area breeder was showing me his paphiopedilum / phalaenopsis collection and he had thousands of plants, most of which would be sold as unnamed crosses; but the occasional phenomenal beauties, like the recent almost-black paph. that bloomed, pays for his investment. But he has to grow a LOT of them to get the award winners. He starts with quality plants with good lineage with qualities that he is looking for like flower size, texture, color, etc. - But he has to grow quite a few for quite a while to see what he actually has succeeded in doing.
But, as with all breeding, one you do not see as that great, someone else may find appealing.
Steve

[catherinecarney]

Originally Posted by Stray59

But he has to grow quite a few for quite a while to see what he actually has succeeded in doing.
But, as with all breeding, one you do not see as that great, someone else may find appealing.
Steve

Exactly. And there's the rub with any breeding program--the investment of time and resources in many offspring in the hopes of getting a couple of really good ones.

Too many people look at the time they've spent to get to wherever they're at and don't want to cull their offspring, thus keeping undesirable genes in their breeding pool. I had to make this decision with a ram line after 3 generations of breeding--great conformation and fleece, but aggressive as all get out, all of them--more than five years of my breeding program gone because of that particular bloodline, but I had to do it to strengthen the program as a whole (and the rams I culled out were good eating). Ewes from the bloodline were not aggressive, but they threw sons who were, so they either stayed in my flock or went to other handspinners as wool producers only, NOT breeders.

There's an old saying that applies: "breed the best to the best and hope for the best." There are no guarantees, and a serious breeder understands that and is willing to cull severely. Also, just because an organism meets the "standard" whatever it may be does not mean it will pass those desired traits on to its offspring.

And sometimes breeding two average individuals together will produce offspring of exceptional vigor or other characteristics (the way the genetics of the parents works together just "clicks.").

Knowing the lineage of the proposed parents helps--and I know I spend considerable time researching pedigrees and checking genetics on my Shetlands (and Springer Spaniels when I bred them), but there are always surprises--waiting for the offspring to prove out is like waiting for Christmas!

Catherine

[Stray59]

Catherine:
I have so enjoyed reading your posts - I have bred afghan hounds, tropical fish, plants, etc - the breeding rules remain the same - if there was a guarantee that all offspring would be high quality, you wouldn't see people attempting anything but the highest quality breeding programs; but you can always make sure you start with quality plants - breeding hybrids back into straight species can give some really rewarding outcomes and species are not awarded, they are just the straight-from-nature diversity that we can always work with!
Awarding can bring in good money and reputation, but we all see beauty in different things, so sometimes the award is just icing on the cake!
Steve
BTW - I can imagine an aggressive Ram would only be necessary in some environments where they would have to fight off coyotes or wolves or such - We had an old aggressive ram, but he always seemed to throw mild-mannered offspring and he would stand up to wild dogs and such, so he was a benefit; just don't get caught in the pen with him unless you had a bucket to hit him with!

[catherinecarney]

Hi Steve--

Thank you for the compliment! It's great to read the posts on OB--it seems to be filled with people who THINK about all things orchid (and many other things) and try to find out the hows and whys.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, and no matter how specifically a standard is written, no matter for what species, it is always subject to interpretation, with different people focusing on different aspects. I am thrilled when I earn a ribbon with any of my sheep, but that doesn't mean that the awarded critter is better than the one next to it--just that the judge liked it better at that point in time. It doesn't determine the genetics of the critter or its value to the breeding program, just that it looked great. I would guess that the same thing is probably true with orchids and awards--it's a point in time judgement of the quality of the plant, but doesn't necessarily predict how the plant (or its offspring) will stack up in the future.

As an aside, regarding Shetland sheep--they are a heritate breed, classed as a landrace/primitive, and are known for being able to fend for themselves. We have seen our ewes run dogs that were larger than they are out of the pasture, and they have (in general) a reputation for being relatively (as sheep go) predator proof. My rams are dog-aggressive as well....However, the breed is not known for being people aggressive, so when I ended up with a line that was going in that direction (and the rams have impressive headgear and are strong for their size--my rams run about 100# and I have broken 2 x 4's and a bent stock panel courtesy of one of the idiots we put in the freezer) I knew that for my safety, and just as importantly for my reputation as a breeder, it was time to put them in the freezer....

Catherine

[Stray59]

Well Catherine - they were obviously better looking in the freezer than standing in front of you backed into a corner!! Nice to hear from you - you just never know where these threads lead you do you? Good practical genetics lesson.
Steve

[catherinecarney]

Genetics is a fascinating topic, and there's a lot we don't know about it.

While many people think of genetics in a straight dominant/recessive, on/off, yes/no sort of way, that's not really the case. Genes can be co-dominant (think of Mendel's red x white peas which produced pink flowers rather than either the red or white of the parents), their expression can be modified by the actions of other genes (many animals, humans included, have color dilution genes which control where and how much of the "base" color is expressed--a bay horse is a black horse with one copy of a dilution factor, a perlino is a black horse with two copies), and add in the concept of random assortment (meaning that genes don't always stay with the same chromosome during meiosis), and the results of crosses can be rather unpredictable! That's completely ignoring random mutations (and that varies by species--some have rather high rates and others not so much).

All of which helps to explain why selfings of awarded cultivars may produce offspring which look nothing like the parent....and why the F2 or F3 offspring of a hybrid cross my look very much like one of the original parents.

Catherine

[goodgollymissmolly]

You are so right CC. Inbreeding does not introduce problems. It allows one to see recessive problems that already exist. Only by seeing them can you start to eliminate them. The problems are caused whenever you see them and fail to cull mercilessly.

This all goes back to religious belief that marrying your mother or sister is bad because it produced some defective offspring. The genes for defects already were there but no one understood so they attributed it to marrying a relative.