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  #1  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:20 PM
FairyInTheFlowers FairyInTheFlowers is offline
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Yes, I have been completely converted to the 'splitter' camp in the 'Taxonomic Wars'! Before my conversion, I had never really known why I preferred to have several smaller genera instead of one giant genus, but I now know why. I was reading an article in Orchids about recent taxonomical changes in the Maxillaria Alliance, and there was something that really caught my attention. It goes something like this (My paraphrasing, but quite close to the real thing): "The reason behind these taxonomical changes is that before, when someone said, "I have a Maxillaria species", you wouldn't really know any generalizations about it, you wouldn't know its general habitat, flower structure, or several other features. The reason is because there is over 500 species in the old Maxillaria genus. Now that the genus has been split up, the new genus names better fit the species that compose it. So when someone says, "I have an Inti species (one of the new genera split from Maxillaria) you have a way better clue of what the plant looks like, and its general culture." This paragraph really turned the light on for me as to why I was always against the 'Genus Clumping' that is going on so much. To be honest, I really don't care about all of this DNA stuff, just because some genera are closely related, you do not have to throw them together! Like sure, most of the Cattleya Alliance are closely related, but now when some one mentions that Cattleya species thrive in their conditions, we don't know if they are talking about the unifoliate labiata group, the bifoliate bicolor group, or even the rupicolous Laelias! So, I don't know about you people, but I don't plan on changing much of my tags anytime soon! UGHH!!! Thanks for letting me rant, as this has been bugging me for a LONG time.

Last edited by FairyInTheFlowers; 09-21-2011 at 02:22 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Paul Paul is offline
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Never thought about it that way. Cody. Interesting point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust View Post
just because some genera are closely related, you do not have to throw them together!
I do have to respectfully have to disgree with you here, however. Grouping by relatedness is the entire purpose of taxonomy.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2011, 03:19 PM
FairyInTheFlowers FairyInTheFlowers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
I do have to respectfully have to disgree with you here, however. Grouping by relatedness is the entire purpose of taxonomy.
Yes, I know that, but that is why you put species that are the same into one genus, not similar genera into one genus. I find that 'lumping' does the reverse of the taxonomical purpose, for it transcends the inter-specific relations of a specific genus by adding 'new' species into the genus which although are related, are slightly different. Even though it is all technically Cattleya, you still find terms such as the unifoliates, the bifoliates, and the rupics, words that should never have had to be created, but were due to the inefficiencies of the generic classifications and the species within them. While, yes, having more genera is a bit more cumbersome, it is a good sacrifice to enable the genus to have its proper function, delineating species that have a common feature that is not found in the species of closely related genera.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:45 PM
msaar msaar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust View Post
While, yes, having more genera is a bit more cumbersome, it is a good sacrifice to enable the genus to have its proper function, delineating species that have a common feature that is not found in the species of closely related genera.
That is a reasonable definition of taxonomics. Assignment to a particular genus is entirely dependent on the systematics used to define those common features and differences. The current sweeping changes in some genera are because some taxonomists have adopted systematics based on genetic analysis. There are those that would argue that this is no more accurate than previous systems until the analysis is based on the complete genome rather than selected parts. What matters to me as a hobbyist is stability.

Last edited by msaar; 09-23-2011 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:50 PM
Eyebabe Eyebabe is offline
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Nice point....but ouch! my head hurts now
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:52 AM
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it has nothing to do with DNA...it has something to do with people who are humans who make mistakes who happened to be assigned to be aproving today some paperworks submitted for naming new hybrids ... we are under their mercy under their whims (oh its tuesday and I didnt poop this morning so I will rename this orchid "Pipa" just say it is growing on colder regions and have tricolor)... didnt bother to check that this plant was named in 1996 and someone had submitted on 2006 and got approved and another is submitting today with another name...yet if he only checked all three have exactly the same parents!
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:52 PM
Cattleya17 Cattleya17 is offline
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I have never dived into taxonomy before. I dont know what belongs where and it doesn't seem like they know either....i hope they get it together soon because all these name changes to the cattleyas is making my head spin! some plants that used to be blc are not Rlc and other catts are now guarianthe and supercalifragilisticexpialadocious! (Joke) he he he

When i learned about orchids I learned them by the names they were from the get go so i guess i have some sentimental feelings and attachments to the old names....... but i guess that the way it is and i will have to learn the new names now......yikes! lol
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:44 AM
dope.fatboy dope.fatboy is offline
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It's hard for me to care as much about taxonomy since there's so much grey area, but this is an excellent point.

However, as I see it, you either have more specific intergenus information (such as tribe) or more specific section information. Genus clearly won't satisfy the demands of both. No matter how you look at it you still need to know more information about plant groupings than Genus provides. My personal preference is to have general genera because it makes tags and general lineage easier. If you want to know something more specific then you're going to look it up anyway.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:58 AM
Discus Discus is offline
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Botanists are constantly revising their opinions of what represents a species within the Orchidaceae and how orchids should best be classified. We can expect a lot of upheavals in "conventional" or "established" nomenclature in the future, particularly as more and more studies using molecular (DNA) information better illustrate the inter-relationships between species, particularly at the generic (genus) level. Of course, this is annoying to hobbyists, but such is life! Many people expect that some of the "mega-groups" (dumping grounds?) like Dendrobium and Bulbophyllum that contain hundreds or even thousands of species will ultimately get broken down into many much smaller genera, with just a few species ultimately "belonging" to that particular genus. Cue wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst growers (and much re-labelling!). I suspect some people will stick to the "tried and true" names for a while, as there can be a lot of flip-flopping when taxonomists haven't quite made up their minds in the face of new ideas and new information. And of course, sometimes you're attached to the old name! (I spent quite a few years as a [fish] taxonomist-in-training, so I appreciate both sides of the argument!). Ultimately, I think it will be good to have an accurate phylogenetic naming/classification scheme within the orchids; I imagine there are quite a lot of polyphyletic and some paraphyletic groups which need to be sorted out. It's going to take some time to get there though, with ~20-30,000 species!

People have managed to cope with the loss of favourite names in science before. The poster child for the rules of taxonomy, at least in Zoology, must surely be Hyracotherium, which could be rather more beautifully referred to as Eohippus, but unfortunately, (if I recall correctly) Owen named its fossilised teeth(!) Hyracotherium long before (well, 35 years before) anyone realised they belonged to a possible ancestor of modern horses, and the rules say the oldest validly published name wins. Eohippus means "dawn horse", whilst the significantly less mellifluous Hyracotherium means "Hyrax-like beast". Amusingly enough, as enamel is so resistant to decay and therefore fossilises relatively easily, palaeontologists (perhaps I read it in one of Stephen Jay Gould's books/essays?) have made remarks about the fossil record of mammals mainly being along the lines of "teeth slowly evolving into different teeth"...

Of course, give it enough time, and the classification will be wrong again - orchids are still busy evolving away (as is everything else!). I have often idly speculated on what will happen to taxonomy and systematics once the living populations have diverged enough from the holotypes, and quite how we're going to reconcile the increasing importance of genetic techniques where holotypes are not amenable to such study... Fortunately, the first half of this paragraph is not something we'll have to worry about in our lifetime, but the second half (matching genes up with holotypes that have irreparably damaged DNA) is going to be tricky. I suspect eventually groups like the ICZN and ICBN will have to establish rules, perhaps some sort of "geno-neotype" ranking - and ultimately, what they're going to do about chronospecies which have arisen within what will then be recorded history!
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