species and species sibling cross
Login
User Name
Password   


Registration is FREE. Click to become a member of OrchidBoard community
(You're NOT logged in)

menu menu

Sponsor
Donate Now
and become
Forum Supporter.

species and species sibling cross
Many perks!
<...more...>


Sponsor
 

Google


Fauna Top Sites
Register species and species sibling cross Members species and species sibling cross species and species sibling cross Today's Postsspecies and species sibling cross species and species sibling cross species and species sibling cross
LOG IN/REGISTER TO CLOSE THIS ADVERTISEMENT
Go Back   Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web ! > >
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-29-2019, 10:34 PM
SouthPark SouthPark is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Dec 2018
Member of:AOS
Location: Australia, North Queensland
Posts: 5,214
Default species and species sibling cross

Hi all. I was thinking about orchid species ----- the word "species". If an orchid is a particular species, and if siblings from that species are crossed, then will the tags/labels of the resulting plants from the cross be retained?

I'm thinking that - in the wild (or in the lab) -- two plants of same species are crossed to produce new plants --- then the tag of the offspring can be same as the parents, right? Or wrong? It's ok if 'wrong'. Just trying to find out how all this works.

I have seen labels for species plants that have a 'x sib' next to the name ----- which certainly indicates what was done, which is nice. But trying to find out if that 'x sib' is critically important. And what happens if the 'x sib' is excluded? I'm happy to keep it included

Last edited by SouthPark; 06-29-2019 at 10:38 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-30-2019, 02:11 AM
AnonYMouse's Avatar
AnonYMouse AnonYMouse is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2012
Zone: 9b
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,328
Default

I could be short or completely wrong but I believe "x sibling" is mostly for the benefit of breeders.

Sometimes you might see, "species A "1" x species A "5" for the same reason.

They are all Specie A.

Other collectors may have other reasons for acquiring such labeled plants. Perhaps they are looking for specific traits of the parents. Especially if you collect a specific species or hybrids.

Others may be by to contradict me.
__________________
Anon Y Mouse

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Hanlon’s Razor

I am not being argumentative. I am correcting you!

LoL Since when is science an opinion?

Last edited by AnonYMouse; 06-30-2019 at 02:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes SouthPark liked this post
  #3  
Old 06-30-2019, 09:22 AM
Ray's Avatar
Ray Ray is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2005
Member of:AOS
Location: Oak Island NC
Posts: 15,159
species and species sibling cross Male
Default

No contradiction, just expansion.

There are three routes for sexual reproduction, an "outcross", where the parents are the same species but from different populations, a "sibling cross" where both of the parents were from the same population brought about by a prior cross, or "selfing" where the pollinia from a plant is placed on a flower on the same plant.

In all cases, if the parents were the same species, so are the offspring, just with different approaches to the genetic distribution (hence the interest to breeders).

The plural and singular of the word is "species".
__________________
Ray Barkalow, Orchid Iconoclast
FIRSTRAYS.COM
Try Kelpak - you won't be sorry!
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes SouthPark liked this post
  #4  
Old 06-30-2019, 03:01 PM
SouthPark SouthPark is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Dec 2018
Member of:AOS
Location: Australia, North Queensland
Posts: 5,214
Default

Thanks very much Anon and Ray for writing and sharing those details. Genuinely and greatly appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-30-2019, 03:23 PM
Paul Paul is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Zone: 5b
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,077
species and species sibling cross Male
Default

For the sake of clarity, a slight elaboration of what Ray wrote:

"There are three routes for sexual reproduction for a cross to still be a species ......"

Just thought it best to mention as crossing two different species would still be a form of sexual reproduction, but the offspring would now be hybrids, not a species.
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes SouthPark liked this post
  #6  
Old 07-01-2019, 09:11 AM
Ray's Avatar
Ray Ray is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2005
Member of:AOS
Location: Oak Island NC
Posts: 15,159
species and species sibling cross Male
Default

...and taking this farther:

If two identical hybrids are crossed, the same three sexual approaches apply, and the progeny are still that hybrid.

If two different species, two different hybrids, or a species and a hybrid are crossed, everything - by default - is an outcross, so the terminology is not even used.
__________________
Ray Barkalow, Orchid Iconoclast
FIRSTRAYS.COM
Try Kelpak - you won't be sorry!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-01-2019, 10:00 AM
SouthPark SouthPark is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Dec 2018
Member of:AOS
Location: Australia, North Queensland
Posts: 5,214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
...and taking this farther:

If two identical hybrids are crossed, the same three sexual approaches apply, and the progeny are still that hybrid.
You're right about the hybrid - grex name - is maintained in the progeny. I've been thinking about mutation - and whether mutation are always still going to be placed under the same grex name. Maybe it is. I don't know a great deal about DNA workings. But wonder if any degree of mutation still makes a hybrid plant still fall under the same grex.

Last edited by SouthPark; 07-01-2019 at 10:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-01-2019, 10:40 AM
Ray's Avatar
Ray Ray is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2005
Member of:AOS
Location: Oak Island NC
Posts: 15,159
species and species sibling cross Male
Default

When it comes to mutations, yes it's the same grex, and I believe the cleanest way to handle it is through the cultivar name. If the mutation breeds true, then I suppose it could be assigned as a variety...
__________________
Ray Barkalow, Orchid Iconoclast
FIRSTRAYS.COM
Try Kelpak - you won't be sorry!
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes SouthPark liked this post
  #9  
Old 07-01-2019, 04:08 PM
Fairorchids's Avatar
Fairorchids Fairorchids is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Zone: 7a
Location: North Plainfield, NJ
Posts: 2,817
species and species sibling cross Male
Default

In hybrids, mutations are normally given a different clonal name (varieties only apply to species). Since clonal names are not registered (unless the plant earns an AOS/RHS/other society award), this is not scientifically sound system.

To go back to the original question, in a species the difference between outcross, sib cross & selfing is irrelevant, unless some unique color forms or varieties were used - and identified on the plant label.

For example:
  • It takes 2 true albas, to produce 100% albas.
  • Alba x tipo produces all tipo, allbeit with 50% alba genes. This is a stepping stone in line breeding better albas.
  • In some cases, forma alba (= white) x forma flava (= yellow) will produce all tipo, when the recessive alba is incompatible with the recessive flava. These plants will be genetically useful towards producing albas or flavas in the next generation.
__________________
Kim (Fair Orchids)

Founder of SPCOP (Society to Prevention of Cruelty to Orchid People), with the goal of barring the taxonomists from tinkering with established genera!

I am neither a 'lumper' nor a 'splitter', but I refuse to re-write millions of labels.
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Likes
Likes wisdomseeker, SouthPark liked this post
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
cross, crossed, plants, species, wrong


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bulbophyllum Binnendijiki x sib. In spike? Cooper baby Bulbophyllum Alliance 11 01-27-2018 12:01 PM
Phal - what is species and hybrid differences? Phonelady Beginner Discussion 10 10-28-2017 04:47 PM
Question re species or sub species. bil Beginner Discussion 5 09-25-2015 09:09 PM
Orchidaceae ID LiquidSky Identification Forum 13 07-08-2012 05:49 PM
Hybrids Question... cb977 Beginner Discussion 27 09-08-2006 08:11 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 AM.

© 2007 OrchidBoard.com
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.37 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Clubs vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.