Apparently repeated meristem propagation affects plant quality - how does this work?

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

The photos show two markedly different flowers, but the differences are not outside the variables that can be influenced by cultural differences (light, temperature, humidity, watering during bud development & fertilizer).

Re: no mutation compared with mutant (eg. due to mericloning of mericlone dna corruption).

At the moment, I don't think cultural difference will make one plant produce lip fringes having a toothed pattern (showing perhaps some digbyana influence) that run along the lip perimeter, while the same plant grown under other different conditions produces flowers having no traces of those lacey frilled toothed fringes.

All of the awarded plants look the same (their flowers that is) ... from different countries. None of the awarded plants flowers have very prominent toothed (serration) patterns along lip fringe .... and there is always a distinctive gap on each side where the lip meets the column region. This is referring to Rlc. Memoria Helen Brown 'Sweet Afton'.

A serious collector (or fan) of a particular plant would study photos of the 'original' very closely and would be unlikely to tell others that their plant is a particular cultivar - while knowing that the flower clearly looks nothing at all like the original plant's flower ..... looking nothing like every awarded plant (flower) of that cultivar.

[donna133501]

I would look for papers or a website for the grower..chances are that's not the first time he's made a statement like that. Maybe you can get clarification that way.
Also...here(U.S.)..you can request a copy of the original tape from the television company, maybe you can do that?

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by donna133501

I would look for papers or a website for the grower..chances are that's not the first time he's made a statement like that. Maybe you can get clarification that way.
Also...here(U.S.)..you can request a copy of the original tape from the television company, maybe you can do that?

A tape or document would be good. I think AOS may also have documents linked to this too.

I think some people are onto it already - as in mutations can just simply occur.

And maybe when chemicals are involved, it might even lift the chances of mutation within batch populations of meristem propagation plants.

And then if mutated plants (even if flower appearance is pretty much the same as the original flower) are later propagated via the meristem approach, then it will just lead to a whole bunch of mutated plants.

The word 'cloning' is important here. A 'clone' should remain defined as having DNA that is IDENTICAL to the original.

So, in the process of 'cloning' of orchids, where any result doesn't have identical DNA ----- just means that process failed for particular results.

Instead of using the word 'cloning' ----- it should probably be called 'cloning attempt'.

[JScott]

Yeah, I think it's like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, eventually your copies are going to be crap. But if you're going back to the original plant to clone it, there should be no loss of quality.

However, random mutations can occur in meristem cloning. Somebody mentioned George King 'Serendipity' a bit ago, saying that it has been over cloned and is more pink now and has lost the lovely peach color. I guess mine must have been cloned from an older plant, because the flowers open pink, but then fade to a lovely peach color after a few days, as is the hallmark of this wonderful plant.

Interestingly enough, however, there are two commonly available clones of George King. Of course there is 'Serendipity', but there is also 'Southern Cross', which resulted from a random mutation when cloning 'Serendipity'. The clones of 'Serendipity' bloomed out with the same great size and form, but they are a delightful yellow in color rather than peach. So yes, sometimes random mutations can occur, but sometimes they can result in some really nice things.

But yes, in short, it is possible to over clone a plant and result in loss of quality, but that only happens if you are making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, which nobody should be doing anyway.

BTW, 'Southern Cross' is on my wishlist, but it seems to be much harder to come by than 'Serendipity'. I've never been able to find one that looked like a good quality plant that I would want. I've seen a few on eBay, but they all looked like crap, or they came from sellers I don't trust.

[SouthPark]

I think that if a copying or cloning 'attempt' succeeds, then all ok. Just how do we tell if the attempt actually succeeded?

Maybe we could tell if we have the technology - extensive DNA testing. As long as the DNA testing method is a good one, then at least there can/will be a way to make sure the cloning 'attempt' worked.

The issue (if we can call it that - an issue) is when no checks are done, or if no checks can be done (for whatever reason).

I was always under the impression that - if a cloning attempt 'succeeds' ----- then the particular individual that came out is a CLONE.

Any mutated individual is not a 'clone'.

If any individual result coming from a cloning attempt happens to have mutated, then it doesn't necessarily mean total failure ----- because some of the individual results will have exact DNA match with the original.

The issue is ----- maybe lack of methods to find out from a batch ----- which individuals are 'clones', and which individuals are NOT clones.

If any of the non-clones are assumed to be 'clones' (due to their flowers looking identical - even if mutation actually occurred, or they are just assumed to be clones regardless), then we have a case of performing cloning attempts on 'non-clones'.

Lack of cheap and fast and reliable testing methods means that orchid growers and nursery growers etc receive batches of orchids or individual orchids that may or may not be 'clones'.

And various naming/tagging/identity issues etc follows on from that.

[Ray]

Simple statistics.

"X" percent will be genetically defective at each replication, meaning the "good" percentage is reduced. Do it again and the good percentage is also reduce by X%, meaning the next good percentage is even lower...

and again

and again.

[SouthPark]

The assumptions here are:

1) The specimen on which the cloning attempt will be performed has original DNA - exact (original) DNA.

2) Clone refers to an individual from a 'cloning attempt' having exact DNA match with the original (very first) orchid.

3) The portion of mutated orchids (relative to total number of orchids from a 'large' batch) from cloning attempts on CLONES increases with generation number. For example, if cloning attempt is done on the very original plant, then (for example only) 1% of the resulting batch could be mutated ---- first generation. Then, if somehow we can reliability pull out a CLONE from the first generation (ie. identical DNA as the original plant), then carrying out a cloning attempt on the first generation CLONE could result in say 5 percent portion being mutated. These figures are just made-up ..... just as an example.

Now ----- whether the details of assumption 3 are fact or not ----- I do not know.

But we can certainly understand that having no cheap and reliable DNA testing services and registered orchid DNA data-base for everybody to do checks etc ...... then we just face what we see right now. Uncertainty in identification.

This obviously doesn't affect all orchid growers. It does affect orchid breeders maybe. But for a lot of home-growers ------ everything is ok if the flower at least comes out to be what they're expecting.

[Fairorchids]

Some growers will advertise their meristems as being from a mother plant (= original genetic material). However, growers who work from a clone (or a clone of a clone) rarely admit this.

That's why there are a lot of pink George King 'Serendipity' in the market now. And, as a consumer, I would be less than satisfied if I was looking for a peach colored flower, and actually received pink.

[JScott]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

Some growers will advertise their meristems as being from a mother plant (= original genetic material). However, growers who work from a clone (or a clone of a clone) rarely admit this.

That's why there are a lot of pink George King 'Serendipity' in the market now. And, as a consumer, I would be less than satisfied if I was looking for a peach colored flower, and actually received pink.

I don't remember for sure, but I believe my 'Serendipity' was advertised as a clone of the original mother plant, or a division of the mother plant. I think i got it at Odom's. And I tend to believe it was cloned from the mother plant or a division thereof, because it is the perfect peach color we are looking for when be buy that plant. i'm very happy with mine, as it blooms out in exactly the color I expected and wanted it to. Here's some pictures so you can see. The pink ones were right after it opened. The peach ones were from when the flowers were a few days old.

[SouthPark]

JS - I'm thinking that the chance is relatively high for getting a clone (ie. identical DNA as plant #1, where #1 means the very first original cultivar) from a cloning attempt process done on a CLONE (identical DNA to #1).

So you either received a clone (exact DNA match), or ....... if any mutation is present, then the traits you're looking for are still there, which is great. You probably got a plant with exact DNA match.

I love that peach colour. Fantastic!