When has pollination truly "taken"

[Paul]

More for kicks than anything else, I did a reciprocal cross of a species Encyclia and a hybrid mini catt (an Slc.). This was roughly 2 or 3 weeks ago.

In both cases, for the first week or so after pollination both flowers show some small swelling of the ovary as well as some color change of that region. In both cases, the flowers showed some color change as well though it was much more pronounced with the catt and the enc's petals & sepals did not "wither up" as did the catt's. (However, never having checked into this, I have no idea if that is normal behavior for Encyclia flowers.)

Yesterday, I noticed the Encyclia flower looking like it had gone downhill and upon gently touching the flower, it fell off. The ovary on the catt has continued to swell a tad more and remains a rather dark green.

My question:
Is there a point at which one can be fairly certain that pollination has been successful and the fertilized flower will NOT abort?

Also, assuming that I find someone interested in flasking this cross for me, any idea about how many months the pod will likely take before being ready to harvest? (I realize green pod harvesting will be the way to go.)

[Fairorchids]

My experience (mostly Paphs, but also Vandaceous) has been that 'failures' can occur at any time, up to the point that a seemingly successfull pod turns out to be empty. However, after 6 weeks or so, failures are rare.

[lotis146]

Interesting that your flowers looked pretty normal for so long. As I was saying in a thread I posted a week ago within 24 hours all four Phals I pollinated started to wither. One fell off like yours several days later, two others look as though they will fall as their petioles are withered and not swollen, but one while the flower is withered the ovary appears somewhat swollen as does the petiole. I'll have to add some pics to my thread. It is a good question though as we wait anxiously.

FairOrchid you say about 6 weeks is usually a positive indicator? Oh, if I can last those weeks...

[Fairorchids]

In Paphs the flowers do not wilt after pollination. In all other genera that I am aware of, the flowers do wilt quickly.

What I meant is that 90-95% of failures become apparent within the first 6 weeks or so. Thereafter you can still experience a random failure, but they are rare. In the Vandaceous group, I have experienced that seemingly normal seed pods contained no live seed.

Example: I tried 10-15 Paph crosses this past winter. 7 pods were set.

Yesterday I discovered that the stem is turning brown on one of the plants, which is way too early. Normal Paph pod time is 12-16 months, though pods are usually harvested after 8-12 months for green pod sowing. After only 5 months, this is likely an abortion.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Flowers on Phals that have been successfully pollinated will not wilt and fall off immediately upon pollination. They harden and turn green. The ovaries will swell up. Over time, the petals and the sepals will wither and die, leaving behind the pod.

If the flowers on a Phal have wilted and fallen off, that was an unsuccessful pollination attempt.

[lotis146]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Flowers on Phals that have been successfully pollinated will not wilt and fall off immediately upon pollination. They harden and turn green. The ovaries will swell up. Over time, the petals and the sepals will wither and die, leaving behind the pod.

If the flowers on a Phal have wilted and fallen off, that was an unsuccessful pollination attempt.

Not to be a smarty but I already assumed if the flower falls off then there's no pod to be had because it fell off!

As shown in the thread I posted, the flower wilted completed but the ovary has swollen and turned green. The petals and sepals, while completed wilted, are still there however.

The biggest difference I noticed in the three that were unsuccessful versus this one is the swelling at the base. I had heard and read that around here before but was still curious as the flower started to wilt and I could see the column closing over the pollen. However the failures shriveled at the ovary base, as did the petioles.

Thanks!

FairOrchids I understood what you meant. I would imagine you can have a possible abortion with pods up to the last minute, and as you said you've had pods that were empty. I'm keeping my fingers crossed after 11 days. Those are some interesting stats on your end though.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Its cool, no feathers ruffled.

Yeah, sometimes you can tell that the pollination had some measure of success when the stigmatic opening closes and the column starts swelling. This is a universal sign of the pollination taking to some degree or another in orchids in the families Epidendroideae or Vanillaea.

Not to sound like a downer or anything, but I'm telling you the reality of it all when I say this; just because the stigmatic opening closes, the column swells, and the ovaries swell, doesn't necessarily mean the pod will make it all the way to completion and give you seeds. They could develop halfway and then fall off. Keep it in mind to not count your chickens before they hatch. It doesn't always happen, nor does it frequently happen, but it can happen, so don't be surprised if any one of your attempts do this.

Keep an eye on the developing pods every-now-and-then and hope they make it to maturity.

Good luck.

[lotis146]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Its cool, no feathers ruffled.

Yeah, sometimes you can tell that the pollination had some measure of success when the stigmatic opening closes and the column starts swelling. This is a universal sign of the pollination taking to some degree or another in orchids in the families Epidendroideae or Vanillaea.

Not to sound like a downer or anything, but I'm telling you the reality of it all when I say this; just because the stigmatic opening closes, the column swells, and the ovaries swell, doesn't necessarily mean the pod will make it all the way to completion and give you seeds. They could develop halfway and then fall off. Keep it in mind to not count your chickens before they hatch. It doesn't always happen, nor does it frequently happen, but it can happen, so don't be surprised if any one of your attempts do this.

Keep an eye on the developing pods every-now-and-then and hope they make it to maturity.

Good luck.

I hear ya, I'm already of the mind that there is no guarantee in this game! (Heck, when is there ever?) In fact, I'm happy that 1 of 4 made it. I've got future pollination plans I'm even more interested in so I'm actually glad to not have 100% success right out the gates. Starting out I was glad to see that I got the pollination part right!