Propagation experiment without flasking

[Kevin_PR]

After reading much about flasking procedures, I decided its not for me. Its a whole lotta procedure, time and some money spent, and in a month or 2 mold and bacteria can botch the whole thing. The need for a sterile environment is only necessary because in a flask there is no circulation, and 100% humidity. In nature orchid seed germinate in the most unsterile environments, tropical rainforests(just to name one ecosystem), where a scratch can lead to deadly infection. Light, humidity, moisture and nutrients can all be provided without the flask. Since I will not be creating a stagnant environment, which promotes the growth of bacterium and fungi, I feel that sterility would not be necessary. The yield of seedlings may be lower than in a flask.

Materials
20 gallon tank
Plastic eggcrate
cable ties
water
fertilizer
treefern chunks
Sonic humidifier
Computer fan
LED aquarium light

Procedure
Using the eggcrate and cable ties, I made a platform that will fit inside a 20 gallon tank. It needs to be raised a couple of inches from the tank bottom so that it will not touch the water. Fill the tank with water to about an inch from the eggcrate. Soak a couple pieces of treefern and place them on top of the platform. Sow the seeds on the tree fern. Add a small amount of fertilizer to the water. Drop in the sonic humidifier. I located the fan by the top of the tank and put the LED lighting up top too.

The seeds I sowed were of Pschilis Krugii, they are all I have now. I will post pics later and keep this updated when there are any changes.

No immediate costs I have all the materials on hand and about an hour set up total(including the sowing.

[TOMMYMIAMI]

Good luck, keep us posted. I feel the same about flasking, not for me whatsoever:-)

[Silje]

This sounds like an interesting project. Keep us updated!

The only thing is...that bloody mycorrhiza that I've read is needed for germination, unless you do flasks. Where will you get it from? How will you compensate for the lack of it? Or is it not as important as e.g. Wikipedia claims:

"Orchid mycorrhizae are critically important during orchid germination, as orchid seed has virtually no energy reserve and obtains its carbon from the fungal symbiont".

I'm also fiddling with seed projects outside of the glove box (I actually also made my first glove box yesterday and have now managed to build up nerves to get on with the seeding and re-plating I need to do, despite having read numerous recipes and tips and advice on how to do it), and I tried with Eulophia speciosa seeds spread out on the sand that I took from the area around the mother plant. No success there, but I'll give it another shot this rainy season. I'm thinking like you, it MUST be possible, right? And I don't care so much if the germination is lousy, I'm thinking one can live with that...we're talking thousands of seeds after all, if only a fraction of those make you you still have more than enough of that plant.

Good luck!

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

While it is understood why many people wouldn't want to go the flasking route for sowing orchid seeds; based on what you've posted, it appears that you are also missing a whole set of biological understanding about orchid seeds in general. If I misunderstand, do let me know.

I'm not sure if you've read anything about what the physical structures of an orchid seed are versus what the physical structures of a seed from, say for example, a Gladiolus are - but suffice it to say, they are very different in a number of ways.

The biggest difference, and this is the one that accounts for why orchid seeds are generally sown in-vitro is something called - endosperm.

Most orchid seeds have extremely small stores of it or none of it. Very few orchids have enough endosperm to germinate on their own.

Why is knowing about this important?

Endosperm is basically like egg yolk for an embryonic bird for plant seeds.

There are 3 general possibilities for the orchid's embryo in regards to endosperm presence:

1. Without endosperm, the embryo of the orchid cannot grow because there are no nutrients available.

2. With very little endosperm, the embryo of the orchid has access to a very limited amount of nutrients and would probably only swell up inside the seed coat (aka testa). It may or may not have enough energy to grow large enough to break the orchid embryo's encasing, called the carapace, let alone the outer seed coat, (testa).

3. With sufficient enough stores of endosperm, an orchid embryo will swell up large enough to break their carapace, and eventually break through the testa to germinate into a full fledged protocorm.

Evolutionarily speaking, I don't know which came first, the lack of endosperm or the fungal relationship, but the fungal relationship is one of the factors that makes the orchid seeds germinate in spite of the lack of endosperm, or in spite of how insufficient the amount of endosperm is to germinate the seeds properly.

Again, the reason why most orchid seeds are grown in-vitro is because they have little to no endosperm for the embryo to germinate, and orchids have developed a tight relationship with fungi to germinate their seeds.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that certain orchids do have enough endosperm in the seeds to germinate on their own, without the aid of a fungal symbiont, but the number of orchid species that contain this ability are rather limited.

When people are sowing their seeds on trees or on the ground outside of their native habitats, they are leaving it to random chance that it will somehow meet the correct fungal partner to germinate the seed.

With in-vitro methods, you're replacing the fungal element with a formulated nutrient mixture. Hence why I light heartedly sometimes say that, "we are the fungus". It is because we are essentially taking the place of the germinating fungus' role.

I'm by no means saying that the orchid seeds will not germinate at all - but the odds are not in your favor, and if they germinate, it might not be high enough of a yield to give you a good number of protocorms that will reach seedling stage.

You must also remember that when the embryo germinates, it goes through different stages, before it reaches adulthood, to what everybody recognizes as an orchid.

The general stages after orchid embryo germination are:

1. globular protocorm - this is basically a "spherical" glob of tissue that has yet to physically differentiate into the different plant parts we are familiar with

2. protocorm with first leaf (the first leaf is nothing more than a tiny little spike on top of the protocorm, but will continue to grow until it resembles a tiny little leaf) - sometimes interchangeable between stage 3

3. protocorm with first root (the first root may not be what many people would recognize as an orchid root from that of an adult orchid) - sometimes interchangeable with stage 2

4. small sized seedling (hobbyists will start to really recognize different physical structures of the seedling more readily at this stage, but it is still radically different looking from what an adult plant will look like)

5. medium sized seedling

6. large, mature seedling (this is when the seedling starts physically resembling what hobbyist will readily recognize as an orchid).

7. near blooming sized plant

8. adult blooming sized plant

As you can see, the young orchid has to survive and go through multiple stages before it is somewhat in the clear. If you're ever wondering what the deal with orchids having so many seeds are, this is why.

It's a numbers game, and when you start to understand what happens on a biological level, you'll see why.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Kevin, don't give up on trying flasking. You may want to have a look at the flasking procedure given in http://www.orchidboard.com/community...seedlings.html From personal experience, it requires very little equipment, it is easy, and it works!

Unless you know of an Asian grocery or a big health food grocery (like a Whole Foods Market), in Puerto Rico somewhere (so that you can buy agar), it is probably best to order growing medium ready-made rather than making your own. Others on this site can probably recommend sources for germination medium. If you can locate agar, I can give a recipe for a good home-made germination medium.

But, there is no reason you should not try the experiment you have planned! Those orchids growing in the trees got started somehow!

Since orchids rely on sugars produced by fungi, I have considered that the next time I try growing orchids from seed, with home-made medium, I may add mushroom pieces (stems, etc.) into at least some of the growing medium, see if it helps. This would be as an experiment, of course.

[Kevin_PR]

Yes I realize that they lack endosperm that is why they are grown in agar to supply them the nutrients they need to grow. I plan on replacing the agar by submerging a sonic humidifier/fogger like people use in terrariums and small fountains. The water will be a weak fertilizer mixture. My hopes is that the droplets formed by the fogger will bathe the seeds with a constant source of fertilizer. Flasking procedures require sterilization of all material including the seeds so there is no Mycorrhizae present anyway. Perhaps in the way I'm doing it there will be Mycorrhizae present in the air and perhaps on the tree fern.

Anyway this was a super easy setup that cost $0 and I can convert it to a terrarium setup if this does not work

[Orchid Whisperer]

@King_of_Orchid_Growing
That is a great run-down of the growth stages from seed to seedling, also differences between orchid seed and other seeds.

Thanks

[Orchid Whisperer]

Kevin, don't forget that your nutrient mix needs some form of sugar. Glucose is best, but may not be easy to find. Table sugar seems to work OK (but is not as easily used by the seedlings).

My agar medium recipe comes from How to grow orchids from seeds – kitchen style | Dokmai Dogma That recipe uses 20 g table sugar (sucrose) per liter, but there are also fruit sugars in there from banana and tomatoes. If you want to incorporate in you plan, since you are spraying nutrients on the seeds, you can try sticking with just the table sugar, or you can "juice" everything in the recipe given at the link (except agar) and filter it so that it can be sprayed. Probably want to alternate days when you are spraying nutrients with days to spray plain water.

Any way you go, I look forward to your results!

[Bloomin_Aussie]

I have seen people get reasonable results with what is commonly referred to as the turkish towel method. Essentially you sow onto a ball of sphagnum wrapped in a tea towel that has been boiled to kill pathogens. You introduce mycorrhiza by placing pieces of root material from the mother plant along with the seeds. Leave this sealed in a foam box with glass over the top for a month or so and in theory you should see germination. How you care for the little seedlings I have no idea.

[kindrag23]

@ blooming_aussie check the thread "I did something insane", "My flasking insanity part 2" and there is one on this forum that I posted today about taking them out. and where they are now. Post flasked seedlings. Of course these have come to me already in seedling stage and are ready to be de flasked etc...