Question about Hybridizing with Albas

[shadytrake]

I have a question about hybridizing with a C. loddigesii var alba.

Genetically speaking, does the alba become dominant or recessive?

Would the alba cause a bright color to produce a pastel? (you can tell, I'm not a genetics expert).

If the pod parent is the alba, does the percentage increase?

Would appreciate some scientific information or if you can link me to a good article.

[orchidsarefun]

I'm no expert either but I can tell you what I was told by a breeder. I have a paph lowii which has alba in its genes - one parent. Straight off that tells you that alba is not dominant. If I crossed that with another paph lowii, I would not get any alba offspring - or a minute portion of seedlings that are alba, depending on the genetics of the other parent. However if I selfed it, which I have done, the story is that I would get at least 25% alba seedlings. The alba gene does not mute any colour.
So - probably in 5 years, after growing up a significant population of lowii, I will be able to be definitive

[shadytrake]

Awesome! That is what I thought.

Another question. How do you test the ploidy?

You know: 2N vs 3N vs 4N

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I'm no expert either but I can tell you what I was told by a breeder. I have a paph lowii which has alba in its genes - one parent. Straight off that tells you that alba is not dominant. If I crossed that with another paph lowii, I would not get any alba offspring - or a minute portion of seedlings that are alba, depending on the genetics of the other parent. However if I selfed it, which I have done, the story is that I would get at least 25% alba seedlings. The alba gene does not mute any colour.
So - probably in 5 years, after growing up a significant population of lowii, I will be able to be definitive

[orchidsarefun]

its an expensive test.......I don't know anyone who does it.

If you are lucky, yours might be listed here

Confirmed Ploidy Database | ORCHID VAULT

Generally speaking any species is a 2N, so is a primary hybrid.
OrchidWiz is valuable - any hybrid that has no progeny registered is likely aneuploid, but that is only a guideline. Specific parents can also be researched online. I have also been advised that the very large phals ( especially whites ) are normally 4N. Otherwise you learn from experience. Many of my crosses failed - and I didn't know why until I came across ploidy.....

[Rowangreen]

I believe there's different album genes, so I don't think you could say for sure if they are dominant, recessive or in between without information about the specific gene. Though I think most are recessive.

I know more about animal genetics... for example in horses I believe there's 3 'white' genes (or might be four... but I remember 3). One causes horses to be born dark and get lighter as they age. Another is dominant, and gives pure white horses with only one copy. However if a horse gets a copy from both parents they die before birth. Another you could call semi-dominant: with two copies you get white, but cross that white horse with a chestnut and you get a palimino: equivalent of the pastels you are asking about!

With orchids you can definitely get a pastel in at least one case when the offspring has two DIFFERENT alba genes from their parents: Shop - Orchideen Lucke In this case I'm guessing the two genes are recessive, so the parents will have two copies each, but having two different recessive alba genes combines to give the muted effect.

[shadytrake]

I too know horse color genetics and getting cremello vs palomino vs buckskin vs smoky black I understand.

Orchids though completely stump me.

[orchidsarefun]

me too

and the added problem is that it takes soooo loooong to find out whether you have aced it or screwed up the cross !

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

It's not always apparent because the terms we use in horticulture tend not to look exactly the same as the words we use in everyday life.

Just think of it this way...

As I'm sure you guys may have guessed already, so this would be no big surprise:

Alba is the same as saying albino.

There are different kinds of albino/alba.

Albino/alba genes are recessive.

Given a population of one particular species of orchid that is not normally white in color, the expression of the alba gene is rather rare in the wild, so it is definitely recessive. It is in cultivation that we have been habituated to see lots of plants that have the alba genes, because in cultivation, we tend to select for traits we may like. Natural selection doesn't do that.

Basically, if you do a simple Mendel's Square (aka Punnett Square), you will find that even though the alba genes are recessive, there will always be a 25% chance that the progeny will come out to be recessive-recessive for being albino. 50% will come out heterozygous (aka dominant-recessive). 25% will come out with the dominant coloration of lavender.

There is a more complex Punnett Square system where you can figure out more than 2 traits at a time, but I don't remember how that's done.


Can't help you with the ploidy though. Counting ploidy is above and beyond the scope of a hobbyist.

[shadytrake]

Thanks Philip. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. I have a nice hybrid (not loddigesii type) that I want to cross with loddigesii because I saw an awarded one in AQ Plus that had very similar breeding. It was really nice. I'm wondering if I can get it to replicate similarly with my hybrid.

I measured my flowers last night on the hybrid and they are both larger than the AOS for that orchid and the color is richer. The form looks really good to me but I'm no expert. I'll have to save the pollen though because loddigesii blooms later.